Stuck Honeywell gas valve - bad or is there something to check (will not turn on, rotates slighly)

willrr

I've got an old steam boiler I'm trying to make through another season. Replaced the control unit last year and it worked throughout the season.

Tried to fire it up today and got spark but no gas.

Turned off gas valve (honeywell VR8205C1131 (blue knob) but now won't rotate back on.

Will turn about 1/16 (or about 1/4 the way toward on). Cannot depress (not sure this one depresses).

Can I unstick the valve/knob? Something else to check or did it die when I was not using it (it is old).

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated as this is an older unit.

Thanks!
Will

EdTheHeaterMan

There are mechanical cams inder the plastic cover that will not allow the valve to open or close unless it is depressed before turning. They are different on each model number. In some cases when you depress the knob it will open the pilot valve in order to light the constant ignition pilot. After you turn to the Pilot position, you can press down deeper to light the pilot and wait for 30 seconds for the thermocouple to enguage.

Your model number appears to be a valve that will open the main burner valve in 2 steps when 24 volts is applied the the valve terminals. This valve MUST have a flame detection safety control that will shut off the 24 V to the valve in the case of no flame signal. Once the ignition control established a flame within the allotted time (usually a few seconds) the second stage of the valve opens and the main flame becomes larger.

All this said... there are no serviceable parts under the plastic cover. If you can not get the knob back to the off position and then press and open the knob normally, then you must replace the entire part. There are no serviceable parts inside that gas valve.

Honeywell sold residential product division to Resideo. This is the product page for your valve."
https://customer.resideo.com/en-US/Pages/Product.aspx?cat=HonECC Catalog&pid=VR8205C1131/B&catpath=AllCategories

willrr

Thank you, I was able to move it slowly back to on (a bit of force) but I'm getting spark and no gas so thinking the valve is bad. The number I pulled from an image but it's a variant of that valve, natural gas, with 1/2 x 1/2 intermittent fire 24v ac - so the resido on is OOS - what about this? https://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-VR8204A2076-Electronic-Gas-Valve/dp/B004MH6678/ref=sr_1_1

mattmia2

A pro that can adjust the firing rate and combustion needs to install the new valve.

willrr

I have no illusions about working with gas, I just want to get the right valve replacement, I think the valve on it now is a honeywell vr8403m - so googling brings up VR8440M 1000 - Upgraded Replacement for Honeywell Furnace Control Gas Valve for $181 on amazon but wondering if this is the correct one... or Honeywell Furnace Control Gas Valve Replaces VR8440M2024 VR8440M 2024 for $161 at North American HVAC or Upgraded Replacement for Honeywell Furnace Gas Valve VR8345M4302 on amazon... any help would be appreciated, all look like 24V natural gas, intermittent, runing about 165K BTU 408 sq ft of steam

Thanks!

EdTheHeaterMan

WOAH! You just can't pick and choose the valve based on what it looks like. You also can't just guess at what the original was or what the bad valve might have been. There needs to be a valve that is compatible with the system it is installed on. Where did you get the first valve number you posted? Was VR8205C1131 printed on the valve that you have? or did you just guess at that number from something you found elseware?

Lets go back to the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) specifications. What gas appliance are you working on? Name brand, Model number , Serial number.

If you can't read the numbers from the part then we need to look up the part that is supposed to be there. Next is to see if there is a new part number that overrides the OEM part number. Once you have all the information I may ba able to tell you what you need.

As far as purchasing the part and having it ready for a professional to install, That is unusual. If a customer gave me a part of unknown origin ore even if it was in the original box, I would hesitate to install that part without doing the research I outlined above.

Then after I do the repair, a few months from now, if the system fails again, Who is going to offer you a warranty on that repair? If I supplied the part I would guarantee mya work and handle the warranty return thru normal warranty channels. If you gave me the part, then I ain't bothering with the warranty. You got the part, you replace the part. Good luck getting that taken care of.

So Good luck with that!

willrr

Yep, that's why I'm here asking questions and doing research. The valve is a VR8304M 3558. Supply house lists the replacement as VR8345M4302 and other vendors list it as "VR8304M3558 - Upgraded Replacement for Honeywell Furnace Control Gas Valve" (amazon with ASN of B083WPPTHL which doesn't google to anything directly. North American HVAC seems to do the same thing). My bias is to go with the supply house M4302 variant. The bigger problem is I'm in New England and finding a good plumber who knows steam seems to be a challenge wrapped in a mystery encased in a riddle. It goes on a WM steam boiler that puts out 408sf/160K input/130K output. The only plumber that I've found that sorta knows steam well is super busy and very cranky.

Steamhead

What burner or furnace or boiler is this gas valve used on?

EdTheHeaterMan

willrr said:

Yep, that's why I'm here asking questions and doing research. The valve is a VR8304M 3558. Supply house lists the replacement as VR8345M4302 and other vendors list it as "VR8304M3558 - Upgraded Replacement for Honeywell Furnace Control Gas Valve" (amazon with ASN of B083WPPTHL which doesn't google to anything directly. North American HVAC seems to do the same thing). My bias is to go with the supply house M4302 variant. The bigger problem is I'm in New England and finding a good plumber who knows steam seems to be a challenge wrapped in a mystery encased in a riddle. It goes on a WM steam boiler that puts out 408sf/160K input/130K output. The only plumber that I've found that sorta knows steam well is super busy and very cranky.

This does not answer the question equipment Make and Model and Serial number.

It only states that you have a VR8304M 3558 which is different that your first post of VR8205C1131 and both those numbers are slightly different. One is a standard full open main valve and the other is a staged open valve. This raises questions about the application that onlly the Make, Model and Serial number of your heater can verify.

But you can keep that stuff a secret... and we will keep the info you want a secret also.

Finally, after you replace the part you believe is defective, and it does the same thing, what will you check next?

willrr

Weil McClain g-561-sp-1/44593-0388. The valve has been upgraded to the one listed in previous post VR8304M 3558 (it changed because it seems my valve was installed with the label facing in, and I used my phone to take a picture). The boiler is old and I'm trying to get it through another season, replaced control box last season after getting spark but no ignition. With no readily available plumber, I'm trying to figure out as much as I can. But hope I can get a guy in that can do a diagnostic. The fact that there's so much resistance on the knob makes it a likely point of failure or at least replacement. The pigtail can sometimes get clogged but I don't think it's that. I'd rather not do this but last time I had a problem and visited this site and used their "find a plumber" I called four people, one didn't really do steam and the other three never called me back (repeated calls).

So I do appreciate your help, I'm an engineer but don't like to mess with gas and really appreciates precision and expertise in this domain...

EdTheHeaterMan

The serial number you posted 44593 indicates that the boiler was built in 1975 but no reference to G-561-SP-1

That model number indicates that your boiler is a 5 section model 61 or G-61 but that is only a guess,
that was originally equipped with a standing pilot. That said the electronic ignition system you have is not original.

Before I replace a gas valve, I make sure that there is 24 volts going to the gas valve. If there is no power to the old valve, it will not open, likewise, a new valve will not open if there is no power to the valve. Do you have a multi meter to check voltage?

willrr

Thank you, the G.. is labelled "boiler number"... I believe I have a MM, just need to see if I can find it.. and check voltage to the valve. That said, I am getting spark on the ignitor (but also have another control system from the retrofit where they seemingly only upgraded the valve). I know this because previous owners left me the box with everything but the valve.

willrr

Actually, it's a Peerless G-561 but the ignitor/control/valve have been upgraded/replaced. Hope to check 24v getting to valve this afternoon (and will report back). Also have a potential plumber who seems to want to "swap out the system".. (which my wallet can't really afford right now).

mattmia2

EdTheHeaterMan said:

The serial number you posted 44593 indicates that the boiler was built in 1975 but no reference to G-561-SP-1

That model number indicates that your boiler is a 5 section model 61 or G-61 but that is only a guess,
that was originally equipped with a standing pilot. That said the electronic ignition system you have is not original.

Before I replace a gas valve, I make sure that there is 24 volts going to the gas valve. If there is no power to the old valve, it will not open, likewise, a new valve will not open if there is no power to the valve. Do you have a multi meter to check voltage?

But the knob won't physically be stuck if it doesn't have power.

mattmia2

See if you can find someone that is NCI certified, that will get you someone that understands gas controls:
https://www.myhomecomfort.org/find-a-contractor/

Teemok

Just to back up a bit. You say you are getting spark but I've heard nothing of a pilot being achieved. You will never get 24V to open the main valve if a pilot is not proven. It is possible you have a clogged pilot or the pilot valve has failed or your valve is not getting 24v at all. Playing with gas alone with little experience is not safe. Have a person who deals with gas controls diagnose, it's worth it.

willrr

What do you mean by pilot being achieved - flame beyond spark? I appreciate your thoughts, please note that I am not "playing with gas", I'm trying to tap into the expertise in this forum.

Control system was replaced last season and ran fine. If gas valve knob should turn freely without power than that's a red-flag (it does not) - wouldn't you be concerned? Pigtail testing tips would be appreciated.

I have two engineering degrees and am more than fluent with diagnostic paths, so any tips would be appreciated as I wait for a plumber who may be able to help me....

Teemok

Read all the way before attempting anything. Use your brain, I'm not responsible for what you do. First assumption: There is gas pressure at the inlet of the valve and the manual knob is working properly and in the on position. There's three terminals on the gas valve. MV-main valve, C- common and a PV-pilot valve. While the igniter is sparking there should be 24 volts between C and PV. If true, next step is verifying pilot gas flow (now you ARE playing with gas). I check this by removing the pilot tube from the valve body with the power off and gas valve off. Don't kink it. It's easy to do. The correct fitting adapter lets me hook up to the valve with a manometer (Gas pressure measuring device) All is turned back on and a call for heat causes the ignition sequence (pilot sparking) there should be gas pressure present indicated on the manometer. If no, bad valve. if yes, clogged pilot (the pin hole thimble inside). turn it all off and replace (preferred) or rehab pilot. It takes some skill to not to damage while cleaning it and to know when it's Junk and not worth the time. I'm sure you are smart with two degrees. I've met people with three who admit to being diagnostically challenged and can't use a wrench. Competence has to do with the specific skills, knowledge and procedures. There is a risk even when you are smart, maybe more of a risk, as confidence is the most dangerous. Careful. When re-testing be ready for the main burner to light just after the pilot flame is achieved.

Teemok

The knob on top of that valve has no motor connected to it and is only intended to be moved by humans. Off and On are the positions for an intermittent pilot valve. They are typically not that hard to move. Your C terminal might be labeled mv/pv it's the the middle one of the three.

willrr

The story has a happy ending. My wife got a referral at a volleyball game yesterday, and new guy was a God (with a capital G). New guy cleaned gas feed to pilot, cleaned ignitors, tested pressure, disassembled and cleaned a bunch of other stuff, put new water cutoff switch in, reset pressure (was set too high), and confided that other guy did not know these systems nor did most plumbers under 50. Knew weird local regs around auto vent, was a nice guy. Understood that steam is sorta f-ed until heatpumps work well in extended cold so 80% is about what you get (aka boiler will run for a while but should be replaced, just not a step upgrade given system physics). Old guy probably got $1.5K for fiddling with things enough to get it to fire only to have it go out a few days (or month) later - then tell me to drop $10K for a forklift upgrade. Haven't gotten the bill but wanted to hug him...

I also want to thank everyone who responded on this sub, I still think steam is a lost art and as I mentioned, sometimes my personality is way to "engineering" and that sorta can make me an ****, and I really don't mean to be, so thank you again. I'm hoping I can get the system through another season and replace it when it's warm out. I have a wacky friend in VT who's running a heatpump system with glycerin and pumping that through radiators so maybe a great affordable alternative will become available but retrofitting single pipe steam is a ______

mattmia2

It will cost you far more to convert itto something other than steam than you will ever save with the something else. There is no reason to replace the boiler until it leaks and if you pay attention the leak usually starts small so you have time to replace it.

Steamhead

@willrr , you only need to replace that boiler if it's leaking. Is it?

willrr

The boiler is not leaking, that's the magic replacement event, but if it will run longer and I now have a guy I can call who I trust and isn't yelling at me to drop $10K, I'm pretty happy. Guy started with "well if the boiler's shot it's shot but I need to do a bit of work first." My legit hero...

mattmia2

(what was the deal with the knob on the valve?)

willrr

Good question, I'll ask when he's back but right now, I'm super duper duper ok with letting the expert take care of things.