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HTP, US Boiler, or Lochinvar?

Pulse
Pulse Member Posts: 78
edited August 2023 in Radiant Heating
Lochinvar Knight - WHB085N - ~$ - Warranty = 5yr parts/10yr exchanger - ECM Pump
US Boiler Aspen - ASPN-085 - ~$ - Warranty = 5yr parts/7yr exchanger - No pump
HTP Elite Ultra - EFTU-85WBN - ~$ - Warranty = 5yr parts/10yr exchanger - ECM Pump

All 3 boilers are firetubes with a 10:1 turn down. I can get parts for all 3 easily in my area.

I should probably remove the Aspen, it has a shorter non-prorated warranty, no pump, high price, and no nice stainless indirects/buffers to match.

Is there any reason not to go with the significantly cheaper HTP? Any idea why it is so much cheaper to obtain?

Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,121
    Not all fire tube heat exchangers are equal. Lower priced models may have a Kiturami, Korean made heat that shows up in many of the pricepoint models.
    Any one of those choices will do a good job.

    The key to any/ all boilers life and performance is.

    Proper installation, piping and start up checks and adjustments.
    Fill water, needs to meet or exceed the spec in the manual.
    Ongoing cleaning and readjustments as needed.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,632
    Look at what you want the controls to do, the lochinvars tend to have more configurability which may or may not matter in your application.

    I wouldn't worry about the internal circulator or if there are like branded accessories, both can be added from different manufacturers with equal results. The only caveat might be with indirects or buffer tanks to make sure you can get the temp probe from the boiler in to the well in the tank if the boiler controls allow you to run off if a temp probe vs an aquastat in either.
  • Pulse
    Pulse Member Posts: 78
    hot_rod said:

    Not all fire tube heat exchangers are equal. Lower priced models may have a Kiturami, Korean made heat that shows up in many of the pricepoint models.

    Any idea which manufactures use these cheaper exchangers?

    I do not know what type of steel US boiler uses, but Lochinvar is 316L and HTP is S43932
    mattmia2 said:

    Look at what you want the controls to do, the lochinvars tend to have more configurability which may or may not matter in your application.

    I wouldn't worry about the internal circulator or if there are like branded accessories, both can be added from different manufacturers with equal results. The only caveat might be with indirects or buffer tanks to make sure you can get the temp probe from the boiler in to the well in the tank if the boiler controls allow you to run off if a temp probe vs an aquastat in either.

    Features are something I havent really dived into yet.

    yeah, the internal circulator doesnt really matter, but if it is there, its just something extra for the price point.

  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,002
    edited August 2023
    The Lochinvar's I service seem to hold up longer and without the fussy problems that other boilers have. Failed sensors, ignition control modules, igniters, pressure switches, etc. I think Lochinvar uses quality components. Good technical support as well.

    I'd rather buy an expensive boiler that won't have annoying and expensive repair costs.

    @mattmia2 said:
    Look at what you want the controls to do, the lochinvars tend to have more configurability which may or may not matter in your application.
    Not something to take lightly or for granted. It can be a big deal to have more control options.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    mattmia2PulseSTEVEusaPA
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,632
    If the boiler circulator isn't part of the boiler it gives you more options in replacing it in an emergency if it fails.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,121
    The boilers that include ECM circulators often communicate with the control. They attempt to keep the boiler operating efficiently by watching and responding to return temperature 

    When running in their best condition, todays wet rotor circs last many years

    Water quality and running them in a good operating point in the curve helps

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
    edited August 2023
    The Knight is a very advanced, feature-rich boiler while the HTP is more of a basic design. I've run them both, and have not had any qualms with the quality of the HTP (the Elite does NOT have a Kiturami HX- it's made by Ariston), but their tech support and parts availability is terrible at best. Depending on what you're trying to do with the boiler, all the added features (and cost) of the Knight may not even be useful to you. The Lochinvar Noble line is more on par with the HTP Elite, and at a similar price point, but does not come with a circ. The 80k and 110k sizes both are able to use a basic 007E or Alpha 15-55 size boiler circ if you're stuck on ECM. I have installed quite a few Nobles, maybe 100 in the past couple years since I got away from HTP, and have been very satisfied. USA made, easy to service, parts are readily available, and tech support usually isn't some dork with zero field experience just reading you the manual that you're already looking at.

    I can't speak to the warranty of the Lochinvar as I've never needed to use it, but the utter lack of warranty and support is the reason I stopped using HTP. I had 2 brand new units about a month apart with control board issues, and HTP refused to do anything about it. I was able to get a disgruntled employee of HTP to take care of it for me eventually and send me new boards, but the way they handled it made me look like a fool to my customers and was the straw that broke the camel's back. I will never buy another HTP product, on principle.
    PulseAlan (California Radiant) ForbesRich_49
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 587
    edited August 2023
    Fire tube heat exchangers from all 3 companies will be from AIC S.A.

    So I wouldn't choose based on heat exchanger as they are nearly all the same. Rather the design, controls, and tech support.

    Lochinvar will by far have the best support as they build it all in house and designed everything top to bottom themselves.

    Other two are shared restickers between their sub brands
    us boiler/burnham aspen / crown raptor
    Ariston - htp and nti

    Not necessarily a bad thing, but I noticed the techs in these cases tend to just read the manual for you and don't have in depth knowledge of the products as they are just spread way too thin between all the different lines. It becomes a part replacement hub instead of actual troubleshooting.

    While lochinvar and aosmith do share some products, the Knight is not one of them.
    Pulse
  • Pulse
    Pulse Member Posts: 78
    GroundUp said:

    I have installed quite a few Nobles, maybe 100 in the past couple years since I got away from HTP, and have been very satisfied. USA made, easy to service, parts are readily available, and tech support usually isn't some dork with zero field experience just reading you the manual that you're already looking at.

    Thanks for the insight

    I see that the knight has a larger fire tube(2.2 gal) vs the noble's(1.2 gal), how much does this matter?

    Do you know what the differences between the noble and the epic are? Their brochures seem identical.

  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
    Pulse said:

    GroundUp said:

    I have installed quite a few Nobles, maybe 100 in the past couple years since I got away from HTP, and have been very satisfied. USA made, easy to service, parts are readily available, and tech support usually isn't some dork with zero field experience just reading you the manual that you're already looking at.

    Thanks for the insight

    I see that the knight has a larger fire tube(2.2 gal) vs the noble's(1.2 gal), how much does this matter?

    Do you know what the differences between the noble and the epic are? Their brochures seem identical.

    The water capacity of the HX matters not, as long as the system is properly piped and there is adequate flow through the heat exchanger. The Noble and Epic are the exact same unit- the Noble is the US model and the Epic is the Canadian model.

  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,441
    edited August 2023
    Warranties are a selling point, never intended to be exercised. It is big deal to me. I'm the guy between the customer and the boiler manufacturer. What do you think the customer is thinking when I tell him that the manufacturer denied his warranty claim and it will cost $1000 to make the repair, gasp. It's not how to "Win friends and influence people". I bet that customer will tell all his friends what a smuck I am, no matter how good a job I did.
    I like Lochinvar and use their products for the very reason I don't have to tell the customer their claim was denied.
    I see complaints about denied claims on Heating Help. Perhaps, some are justified, but I suspect some are a company's operating procedure. I hate arguing with customer service.


    Pulse
  • SummitMechanic
    SummitMechanic Member Posts: 25
    edited August 2023
    I personally install 20+ Lochinvar boilers a year and i will be the first to tell you that if you flipped a coin and chose between it and the htp you would be just fine. I personally like the controls of the Lochinvar better, but that is mostly due to time with the machine. All modern boilers have the same problems and they both use essentially the exact same heat exchanger. I will say i would much rather maintain a lochenvar because my hands are larger than a 10 year olds.

    I am unsure of the HTP warrenty, but i do know that Lochinvar has a pretty dang good one. Which is a seeling point for me.
    Experienced Boiler Mechanic In Summit County, Colorado.
    Pulse