Electric Radiant Snow & Ice Melt System.

Allislandradiant

GGross

no insulation?

Allislandradiant

As per manufacturer it’s not needed. 

Zman

Who is the manufacture? Is a slab being poured on top with the tubes sitting on the ground?

GGross

Yeah the manufacturer can say it isn't needed, but as we all know heat moves to cold, and without insulation the owner will be paying more to heat the earth under the driveway

Allislandradiant

Asphalt is being poured over the cables. They can handle the heat from the pour. Which is already done as of yesterday. 

Allislandradiant

This is more for a safety conditions. The will have the option to turn it on or off depends on the snow.

Zman

You have to love the manufactures sales reps, as long as their lips are moving, they are probably lying. It’ll probably spin the meter super fast for the first few years then stop working all together. Electric heat cable is fragile at best when properly encased in a concrete slab, all bets are off after being exposed to the super hot asphalt and a few years of being deflected by traffic.

Allislandradiant

The customer was told all the factors and decided to go this route. We installed alarms on all the mats so if a problem happens during the asphalt pour we will hear it. So far so good. 

pecmsg

What's the amp draw on something like that?

Allislandradiant

The total draw is 190 amps. We broke it down to three zones that rotates on a time schedule. Each zone is about 63 amps which the panel can handle. 

hot_rod

Yeah, asphalt is a tough go over foam insulation. You need a covering of stone dust or something to protect the foam.

Seems odd if it is for safety that you can only melt a 1/3 at a time? How many BTU/ sq ft?

You do nice looking work, good to have a pic of the install.

Allislandradiant

It’s more of a “ Tire Track” installation. I always try to sell a hydronic system with foam board, gas condensing boiler with Tekmar controls. They are only going to use when necessary. Peace of mind I guess. 

leonz

What are the prevailing winds like there??
Having evergreens and other plantings on
both sides will catch snow and drop it on
the driveway.

I take it they do not own a snow blower yet??

Solid_Fuel_Man

Mmmmmm, that'll be a nice electric bill!

190amps at 240 volts is 45.6kW. So at an average of $0.20 a kWh, that's $9.12/hour of operation. Or 1/3 of that at a time. 

hot_rod

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Mmmmmm, that'll be a nice electric bill!

190amps at 240 volts is 45.6kW. So at an average of $0.20 a kWh, that's $9.12/hour of operation. Or 1/3 of that at a time. 

$240 per day to run it? Could be a one time system when that sticker shock hits!

45Kw = 153,000 btu/hr into how many square feet?

jimna01

pretty darn sure at my electric rate ( currently $0.25 / KWh delivered, it was $0.34 last winter ) that would never be turned on at my house.  I’ll clear it off with my snowblower. The snow blower would pay for itself in no time . 

GGross

Snow melt is a luxury for sure. In my region we usually figure for 150btu/hr /sqft including backloss. It's a bit less when idling, but most of our customers here are wealthy vacationers and may still do a cold start of their snow melt occasionally.

I honestly don't think it is that crazy for sporadic use in this case, Long island averages a little less than 1/3rd the snowfall we get here, design day is about 20 degrees warmer, and it is pretty obvious the owner doesn't plan to run it constant through every storm.

Allislandradiant

The snow fall for Long Island last year was estimated about 6 to 8 inches last year.

Mad Dog_2

And some of  you guys wonder why I am so meticulous?? Richie and his top Guys Jimmy The Gent Burke and his protégé, Michael Pedicini broke me in on heating and boilers.  I wanted to do work like they did...Great Teachers I had!  We all knew about and followed Dan back then too.  
As usual, Richard and James...OUTSTANDING craftsmanship!!
All Island Radiant & Snowmelt is killin it. The Great Colorado Madman, Mark Eatherton told me before I did my first Snowmelt; "Snowmelt is a luxury for wealthy folks...If they ask you how much its going to cost to run, they really can't afford it!"  I have found that to be right. 99%of leads, referrals and inquiries, are just Tire Kickers...Mad Dog 🐕 


  Mad Dog 

GGross

Oh I thought they got a bit more, we get about 10 feet on average, google says we only got 73" last year,

Mad Dog_2

We don't get tons of snow every season, but we do get walloped every few years...with several feet.  Wealthy folks plus Very Steep driveway = Snowmelt mad dog 🐕 

Allislandradiant

At the end of the day it’s their house and their choice.

hot_rod

Snowmelts can also often be as a safety measure for accessible ramps, hospital access, etc.

In the mountains near me the cost to haul snow away with loaders and dump trucks in conjested condo projects more than offsets the cost to run SIMs. Two operaters, equipment and diesel costs has to be over $500.00 per hour.

Plus those folks dislike hearing roaring diesels around the clock in the winter.

Allislandradiant

99% of our SIMs are installed for safety issues. Either somebody has fallen and months of physical therapy, the driveway has a incline and could slide into on coming traffic or a business that just wants to keep the customers safe.

pecmsg

Allislandradiant said:

The total draw is 190 amps. We broke it down to three zones that rotates on a time schedule. Each zone is about 63 amps which the panel can handle. 

On the isle of Long?

W O W!

DanHolohan

I think it’s best to never tell a customer what they can’t afford. 

Solid_Fuel_Man

I always give my customers as much of the full picture as I can. 

I actually considered doing snowmelt on my own personal driveway before I had it paved. The cost of the cable scared me off. 

PEX covered with asphalt wasn't an option as far as I could tell back then. I'd love to melt snow with wood!!!! 

I've done some controls on snowmelt systems for hospital sidewalks. Steam shell&tube to glycol pex.... make some condensate!!

Mad Dog_2

Hospitals and municipalities are doing it for Life safety, which a good deal of private citizens do as well.   Very steep and treacherous driveways on busy roads are often the reason why.  That being said, snowmelt is a High ticket item to not only install but also to operate.  Large entities such as hospitals, heliports, airports, winter villages have the "wealth" (Large amounts of disposable income) to be able to afford to do the  install and run it.  Most average, working folks don't, including myself who DID install the insulation & tubing (pipe dream!) , but realized at the time, that  I REALLY didn't have the extra $$$ for a separate boiler and all the accouterments,  NOR to run it.  Today, It lies under my long driveway, waiting for the next owner who has the "extra" $$$ to spend.  Mad Dog 🐕 

pecmsg

Hook it up to a solar collector. 

realliveplumber

I wonder how much better it would work if there was insulation under it.

Mad Dog_2

That was my Plan.....Solar Collectors, Flat Plate HX, separate boiler, Glycol..Large storage tanks....ADDS up my friend $$$$$. Don't regret laying the grid but it was extra money I really didn't have to "experimemt" and "play" with. All the Copper Radiant that went in the Levittown homes had no insulation. Grew Tulips 🌷 along the edge of the house in winter. Definitely not energy efficient, but it did work. Just like this one will work fine.  

Proper Insulation, like the 2" Polystyrene Blue Board is awesome but NOT cheap. People have to make a choice. I put it in their hands. As Dan says, Don't tell Them how to spend their hard earned money!  

Mad Dog 🐕 

hot_rod

If we knew the square footage you could come up with a btu/ sq ft

if it is low below 100 or 125 and with no insulation, the start up time will be long.

The tire track method will help out as will the staging

Hopefully they have posi-traction in their vehicles 🥴

As long as all of this was explained then the HO makes the $$ decisions

The mats look like a quick install

GroundUp

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

I'd love to melt snow with wood!!!!

I have about 2000 SF of snowmelt at home which is served by a wood boiler. There are also electric and LP boilers tied into the same system, which also heats 6000 SF of buildings and DHW, but I've never run the snowmelt on anything but wood. It's nice when I have a bunch of crates, pallets, cardboard, and other junk that I need to burn- as I can turn that junk into melted snow lol.

Allislandradiant

The customer was given all the options. Install insulation with a concrete over pour to protect the cables from the hot asphalt and a Tekmar 670 with the auto storm feature to preheat the driveway before the snow is called for.

Yes, the mats are a lot easier than the straight electric cables which we have done before.

The staging of the mats will give us a lot more opportunities to sell more jobs.

Solid_Fuel_Man

@Allislandradiant what brand of mats are those? Maybe you mentioned it, and I didn't see it. 

I was only offered the cable as an electric option. I liked the idea of electric radiant driveway. So simple with no pumps, glycol, and very little controls. 

I'd be fine spending $20 on electric after I snowblowed to get rid of ice etc. Just doing key areas that are steeply sloped. 

I think my wholesaler quoted price/ft² was about what it cost me to lay 2" of asphalt. 

Mad Dog_2

Fuel Man...where art thou in Northern Maine?  We've been on 6 Summer trips to 6 different parts of Maine .. Gorgeous State.   Mad Dog 🐕 

Solid_Fuel_Man

Mad Dog_2 said:

Fuel Man...where art thou in Northern Maine?  We've been on 6 Summer trips to 6 different parts of Maine .. Gorgeous State.   Mad Dog 🐕 

Presque Isle. 

It's a big state for sure!

dko

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

what brand of mats are those? Maybe you mentioned it, and I didn't see it. 

I was only offered the cable as an electric option. I liked the idea of electric radiant driveway. So simple with no pumps, glycol, and very little controls. 

I'd be fine spending $20 on electric after I snowblowed to get rid of ice etc. Just doing key areas that are steeply sloped. 

I think my wholesaler quoted price/ft² was about what it cost me to lay 2" of asphalt. 

https://www.warmlyyours.com/en-US/products/line/snow-melting-mat
probably this one

Mad Dog_2

Presque Isle...dang Boy! That's the Boonies...only been as high as Lubec. How is passage in to Canada 🇨🇦 there? Are there any barriers,  fences?  RCMPs? Could one stroll through in the woods?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Solid_Fuel_Man

Mad Dog_2 said:

Presque Isle...dang Boy! That's the Boonies...only been as high as Lubec. How is passage in to Canada 🇨🇦 there? Are there any barriers,  fences?  RCMPs? Could one stroll through in the woods?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Customs crossings at pretty much every border town. There are actually sensors on poles all through the woods. I've worked on the system. Large antenna at the customs stations, and even larger diesel generators in case someone tries to make a run for it. 

You now need a passport, but just a few questions and you can travel Canada. I haven't been over since COVID