Combi or Tank Boiler?

jeanray

I am still struggling with the decision to go with the EK 2000 Frontier or the Ascenr Combi Plus -I have a 1000 sq ft unheated basement and 1000 sq ft living area (raised ranch) I never plan on refinishing the basement. 1 zone. Well Water in NH. I currently have a 24 yr old Newport tankless . I have never run out of hot water . I take fast showers and no dishwasher is used. I load of laundry a week . Just me in the house.Over the last 9 yrs I have averaged 371 gals of oil a year . My trusted boiler guy for the last 20 yrs has recommended the EK Frontiier with a 40 gal tank. I asked about a smaller tank (40 gals seems over kill for 1 perrson and 1 bathroom and 1 zone) but he said that's what is standard. I asked about the Ascent combi-he said he was not as impressed by the Ascent and has installed EK systems for 100s of folks. My boiler is running fine but it DOES run even when it's 80 or 90 degrees outside all summer to keep that water hot --it makes me crazy to hear it running!
Is the EK 2000 Frontier overkill for my small home with minimal hot water use? Are combi units /tankless units out dated? I have room in my basement for a tank nut I only plan on living here no more than 8 years longer -perhaps 5? Is it worth it to invest in an expensive system?
Ive gotten quotes for conversion to propane for a Rinnai instant hot water combi that are slightly more than EK 2000 Frontier but not enough to tip the scales for or against.
Ive spent 100s of hours researching and picking all the brains of my friends on what they have .
Any thoughts?
Has anyone had success with the newer tankless coils/combis ? My old furrnace has had issues namely the nozzle getting clogged and shutiing off the furnace -- and the coil replaced from buildup 15 yrs ago but that's about it . No hot water running out issues. I just want a new boiler before this winter as it's time to replace before it breaks in the dead of winter / I also hate hearing the furnace kick on in summer time!

JayMcCay

Thank you for your posts and questions, @jeanray . As you may be in your home for 5 to 8 years and it sounds like you are on the fence about the Ascent Combi and System 2000 Frontier, here are some thoughts to consider. Both will be quieter, more efficient. and will not need to run at night for hot water, but the Frontier will have greater savings and help hedge against future oil (or gas) price swings. It also makes sense to show your lower fuel bills to prospective buyer of your home. With the Ascent so competitively priced and because it also outperforms tankless coil boilers at every level, we do feel that there is no reason to install any tankless coil boiler. The Frontier is an exceptional upgrade from the Ascent as well.

In other areas, you may also wish to review the price per BTU of propane and oil (oil has about 50% more energy per gallon), so $4.00 gallon oil is about the same as propane at about $2.60 per gallon.

I did provide a response to a previous thread on August 8th. Please feel free to give me a call or PM me to discuss further.

Regards
Jay
jmccay@energykinetics.com
908 328-7154 mobile

MikeAmann

Here is some potentially good news:
What are you currently using to control your boiler?
Because it sounds like all you need to do is disable the Low Limit and you will no longer have to keep the boiler hot just for your hot water needs. Or you can set the Low Limit to it's lowest setting. Another option would be to add a timer so that the boiler heats up before you take a shower or do laundry. My point is that you do have options to be explored.
If your boiler itself is not in questionable condition (the tank developing a leak), then you might want to consider adding a modern boiler control and possibly a more modern, more efficient burner.
What do you actually have? Post pictures.

jeanray

Thanks for your comments --I had no idea you can "monkey" with the heat --I thought it has tostay at 180 deg inside the boiler. I am posting my pictures. The only thing I will need in the near future is a power venter (that has been on the table ablut 8 years though this one works OK -have been told it might need replacement)--this furnace has never leaked --ever-- I DO think about the ascent combi plus BUT am wary to go that route as very few people work on these in my area (4 do but at least 2 are NOT highly regarded--so that leaves 2 and one of them may retire in a few years) -- like having a new model car that no one knows how to work on-- I am attaching pictures of my boiler.

JayMcCay

Hi jeanray
It was good speaking with you the other day, it seems you are still on the fence, you do have the perfect application for the "Ascent Combi Plus" which uses standard parts and can be easily serviced by any heating professional. Jean, we work closely with our network of dealers. I'm happy to continue our conversion, please reach out at your convenience.

Jay

jeanray

Thank you Jay -I will email you via my email you with my thoughts.

jeanray

Thank you for the comments --after much thought I DO NOT want a water tank in my basement --if I go with propane install and a renai or get another oil fired tankless-neither will have the water stored separately -I have the space for water but I use so little hot water a day (one bathroom, one short shower and very few dish washing needs) that to have a tank sitting all day all week all month -is inefficient. It's now a matter of installing propane or keeping my oil (though I will need a new oil tank (indoors) in a few years as it is 24 yrs old-it looks fine but as I am told it rusts fromi inside out -so that may tip me to propane . Still debating .

Roger

Thank you for your comments, @lukeanderson and @jeanray .
I'm glad you're looking into this and taking your time, @jeanray . It's an important decision that should provide benefits for decades to come.
There may be some confusion regarding efficiency, combi boilers in general, and the Ascent Combi. The Ascent Combi has wide open water passes (equivalent of a 4" pipe), and wide open flue passes designed for easy accessibility and service; it is also designed for firing natural gas, propane, oilheat, and biofuel blends. In contrast, "ultra compact" and "space saving" characteristics are not all benefits. Most combi boilers have extremely small flue passes and much more restrictive water passes that can foul and often require a dedicated higher head circulator to ensure proper flow through the combi boiler itself, and need a dedicated air/dirt/magnetic separator to help prevent fouling. This is a very significant difference compared to conventional cast iron and steel boilers.
Properly designed indirect tank systems are not inefficient. Combi boilers run the burner and heat up on every hot water call, and finish hot, wasting energy through increased standby or idle losses from the heat left wasted in the combi boiler. Tank systems do have minimal standby losses (they are extremely well insulated), and another advantage to greater hot water supply is that the boiler only runs when the tank needs to be replenished.
Boilers properly designed with thermal purge for heating and hot water purge the heat remaining after a thermostat call into the hot water tank or heating system so the boiler both starts cold and finishes cold, nearly eliminating idle losses for even higher efficiency and greater hot water production. Low idle losses are extremely important to overall efficiency, and in the Department of Energy's BNL study which we reference on our website, the 87.5 AFUE thermal purge boiler with domestic hot water tank had a higher annual efficiency than the 95 AFUE modulating condensing boiler.
Regarding space saving applications, Energy Kinetics also has a stackable System 2000 Frontier boiler with an accessible hot water tank stand that supports the boiler; this will be significantly more efficient than the Ascent Combi boiler even though they have comparable AFUE ratings (AFUE does not rate combination heat and hot water boilers).
Best,
Roger