Trying to identify 1880s radiator

lizg

I'm working on a steam boiler replacement with our plumber, trying to figure out the existing total EDR of our radiators. I haven't been able to identify the type of radiator pictured in this image. Our house was built in 1885, and I think these are original to the house. (Thanks to reading posts in this forum, I've already been able to identify our Bundy/A.A. Griffin Co radiators.) I'm hoping a forum member can help me figure out what these are. Thanks in advance.

Steamhead

Looks like it might be one of these:

https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/ratings-for-gold-nason-bundy-and-reed-radiators/

If there are no markings on it, it's probably a Nason.

lizg

Steamhead said:

Looks like it might be one of these:

https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/ratings-for-gold-nason-bundy-and-reed-radiators/

If there are no markings on it, it's probably a Nason.

Steamhead/Frank -- Thank you for your quick reply and suggestion. In the meantime, I found another catalog, also posted by you, for the Walworth Wrought-Tube Radiators. The pictures look exactly like our radiators, and the length and width dimensions fit ours as well, so I think ours are Walworths.

The Walworth charts list sq ft of surface, but don't indicate radiator height. Ours are all 40" high from the floor (except one, which is 32"). The Nason charts state a "usual" height of 36". Without any other info to guide me, I'm going to assume the Walworth charts are also for 36" (since the sq ft measurements are same as Nason's) and adjust the Walworth sq ft for the greater/lesser height). Do you see any reason not to do that?

Many thanks for your help!
Liz

Steamhead

This one?

https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/wallworth-radiators/

Sounds reasonable. Near the bottom, it does say the standard height is 35 inches.

Mad Dog_2

I see these all the time in NYC 5 boros...still chugging away.  I have two in my own house.  Don't worry you'll get "close enough for Government Work!"  I commend you and your plumber for doing your homework!   Is the whole house full of these?  Please put pictures when done.  Where is this house?  Thanks Mad Dog  🐕 

lizg

Steamhead said:

This one?

https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/wallworth-radiators/

Sounds reasonable. Near the bottom, it does say the standard height is 35 inches.

Thanks for noticing that. I've made the height adjustments and am almost at the end of this research project. Many thanks for your help.

lizg

Mad Dog_2 said:

I see these all the time in NYC 5 boros...still chugging away.  I have two in my own house.  Don't worry you'll get "close enough for Government Work!"  I commend you and your plumber for doing your homework!   Is the whole house full of these?  Please put pictures when done.  Where is this house?  Thanks Mad Dog  🐕 

Mad Dog -- I share your appreciation for those beautiful Walworths! I'm glad to know there are more of them still around. Our house has 7 Walworths, 5 Bundy's, an unknown column type, and an unknown tube type, all keeping us quite comfortable (except for the two in the living room, we'll have to investigate that this winter).

We live in Helena, Montana, in a red brick Victorian that hasn't had many alterations over the years; I think only 3 owners since 1885. Thanks, LizG

Steamhead

@lizg , I've been to Montana (though not Helena) and was pleasantly surprised to see as many radiators as I did. Can you post more pics of the system? We could probably ID your "unknown" ones......

Mad Dog_2

Only been as Far West as Topeka.  Montana is on the List...My Country Victorian Farmhouse was built 1899-1900.  Please send some pics of all.the Radiators, Boiler and outside of the Home.  Thanks Mad Dog 🐕 

random12345

Hard to say...The base and top are are wrong for it to be Walworth. Unless you never had the full top to begin with and just have the screen. The tubes don't look like Nason, and definitely not Bundy either. @lizg More pictures would be helpful.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t3xs6mb1m&view=1up&seq=379&q1=radiator
hevac-heritage.org/built_environment/biographies/surnames_M-R/nason/N1-NASON.pdf
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044091882910&view=1up&seq=291
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044092014703&view=1up&seq=78
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=bc.ark:/13960/t2697zm6h&view=1up&seq=99

lizg

Steamhead said:

@lizg , I've been to Montana (though not Helena) and was pleasantly surprised to see as many radiators as I did. Can you post more pics of the system? We could probably ID your "unknown" ones......

Thanks for offering to help ID the other 2 radiators. Here are some images of the unknown tube type. Its dimensions are 18H, 7W, 34L. It has two sets of rods (2 near top, 2 near bottom) that extend the length of the radiator. Perhaps you can also suggest how to get the dust out of the insides ;-)

lizg

Steamhead said:

@lizg , I've been to Montana (though not Helena) and was pleasantly surprised to see as many radiators as I did. Can you post more pics of the system? We could probably ID your "unknown" ones......

And here's a photo of the unknown column type. Its dimensions are 22H x 42L x 10D.

lizg

Mad Dog_2 said:

Only been as Far West as Topeka.  Montana is on the List...My Country Victorian Farmhouse was built 1899-1900.  Please send some pics of all.the Radiators, Boiler and outside of the Home.  Thanks Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog, Beautiful farmhouse and an amazing chimney. Do you know the history of the home? I'll send some boiler pictures in another post along with a question about boiler sizing (the end goal of my radiator research). And an outdoor photo once the smoke clears (MT and ID fires have started, actually not too bad yet).

random12345

@lizg It would be better if you attached pictures as files instead. Bigger and higher resolution that way. Could you take some more closeups of the sides of the radiators especially any embossed writing around the tappings on the top and bottom? For example there might be something around the “C” I can’t make out now. I would also be interested in more pictures of the supposed Walworth rads. I’m still not convinced that’s what they are.

lizg

random12345 said:

Hard to say...The base and top are are wrong for it to be Walworth. Unless you never had the full top to begin with and just have the screen. The tubes don't look like Nason, and definitely not Bundy either. @lizg More pictures would be helpful.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t3xs6mb1m&view=1up&seq=379&q1=radiator
hevac-heritage.org/built_environment/biographies/surnames_M-R/nason/N1-NASON.pdf
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044091882910&view=1up&seq=291
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044092014703&view=1up&seq=78
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=bc.ark:/13960/t2697zm6h&view=1up&seq=99

random12345, Thanks for offering more detecting on this radiator. After your comment, I looked more closely at the top and base (foot) detail, and they aren't the exact match for Walworth that I thought initially. Here are photos:

lizg

@random12345 -- I'm not sure what and where the "tappings" are and where the "C" is that you mentioned...

Steamhead

A tapping is a hole in the radiator that is tapped for pipe thread. The first unknown rad has a plug in the top tapping that has a "C" on it. It was probably made by Crane.

The column rad is probably a Richmond. This one is not original to the house- it was originally used on a hot-water system. The tell-tale is the location of the vent- that location is perfect for hot-water, not so good for steam. You'll probably find a "boss"- a raised place where one can drill a hole for a vent- maybe halfway down the side of the rad.

As for cleaning the dust from the radiator, try something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Clothes-Cleaner-Electric-Prevention-Exhaust/dp/B07C8KY1R5/ref=asc_df_B07C8KY1R5/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=242014065805&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13763699467702494235&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007858&hvtargid=pla-437484285265&psc=1

random12345

@lizg I agree that the "C" rad is probably a Crane but the 18" height seems odd. Are you sure it's not actually 23"? Is the width between sections 2.5"? See the attached pictures. The other one I can't tell. Take a pic from the side. Your camera seems to be fairly low resolution unfortunately. Hard to make out details. That or you're attaching a smaller file size instead of the actual size. For the older vertical tube-type rads, I also found this old Crane catalog as a possibility, but I think it's less likely:https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiuo.ark%3A%2F13960%2Ft8bg7g78c&seq=101
I would email the Smithsonian at NMAHLibrary@si.edu. Reference the following the collections and ask them to scan and send you a pdf of any trade catalogs containing radiators from before 1900:
Walworth: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/SILNMAHTL_27358
Nason: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/SILNMAHTL_30977
Crane: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/SILNMAHTL_11998
Here is a Crane catalog from 1931, but the 18" height is not listed: https://archive.org/details/craneradiatorsne00cran/page/10/mode/2up

Mad Dog_2

Lizg...Built between 1899-1900 by Polish Farmer.  I could hit the Polish Church with a Perogi if I wanted to, but Father Peter would yell at me!  We are only the 4th owners in 124 years.  My Old Hitchcock Farm owned the lots all way to the Church till 1950s when they got sold off. They had animals and a Pear Orchard.  The Nuns came by to pick the ripe Pears 🍐 and would make Jam and Liquor out of them and share with the neighbors.  They gadva horse and carriage in to the late 1920s.  Our Village Constable was on Horseback till like 1920 when they got him a Motor-Sickle... The Son came by once and told us his father also owned a bowling alley in Queens and that one night he and his younger brother heard someone try to forcibly enter the front door...They rolled a bowling ball down the stairs and The Thief ran!! No damage to oak floors either!  He also carved his name in the horse trough door and "St John's" his college. For Immigrant Farmers 🚜,  they had a Buck.  They sold to two Spinster Sisters who raised a Nephew in the house.  He stopped by during renovations 20 yrs ago. We was extremely impressed with how we restoring it AND our upgrading the older look with additional period stained glass, hand hewn beams, a Real Brick Fireplace and Old Mantel, wide plank wood floors, Central AC, Fire 🔥 Springs Throughout, Antique, scrolled Radiators and Vapor System and Radiant heat, Mud room...They died and sold to a Nice Italian Family in the mid 1970s...Old Man had Pizza 🍕 Places and was a great Chef. 

 His last job was in a Great Restaurant around the block, called The Merry Peddler..   Joe's young co-worker who tended Bar was Sean Hannity (From Franklin Sqaure 2 towns away)  Joe said was over the house often, after work to relax in our Barn (Italian backyard Copacabana at that time) with some cocktails 🍸 and homemade Bruschetta, Gala-Ma (Calamari) and Moo-zah-rell! (Mozzarella).  

We purchased in August of 2000 and the fun began.... a work in progress. I don't know if Its still available,  but Dan did a Show on it with Ric Murray and his film crew on Hvac TV around 2003-2004.  The Burnham Boiler with Double Drop Dead Header  also made the Burnham Calender.  Old House living....Gotta love it..  Mad Dog 🐕 

lizg

lizg said:

Steamhead said:

random12345 said:

@lizg I agree that the "C" rad is probably a Crane but the 18" height seems odd. Are you sure it's not actually 23"? Is the width between sections 2.5"? See the attached pictures. The other one I can't tell. Take a pic from the side. Your camera seems to be fairly low resolution unfortunately. Hard to make out details. That or you're attaching a smaller file size instead of the actual size.

@random12345, thanks for the leads on the catalogs. I've attached some pictures of the "C" rad, higher res ;-). The rad height is 18.5" from the floor, but when I look more closely I see the feet are embedded in the tile floor. I think our contractor did not move the radiator, and instead tiled over the linoleum, in and around the radiator. So that probably adds an inch or so to the actual height, making it at most 20" high. The distance between midpoints of two sections is 1.75".

lizg

@random12345, not always accurate in navigating the quote function on this forum. Here's my message re the photos:
Thanks for the leads on the catalogs. I've attached some pictures of the "C" rad, higher res ;-). The rad height is 18.5" from the floor, but when I look more closely I see the feet are embedded in the tile floor. I think our contractor did not move the radiator, and instead tiled over the linoleum, in and around the radiator. So that probably adds an inch or so to the actual height, making it at most 20" high. The distance between midpoints of two sections is 1.75".

lizg

Mad Dog, What great stories! I especially love the details about the first owner and what life was like in bucolic Queens (?) at the turn of the century. And I agree with your comment about Old House Living...

lizg

Steamhead, Thanks for the ID on the two unknowns, and for the dust tool tip!

Mad Dog_2

Old Hitchcock Farmhouse is just over the Border in to Nassau County.  2 clicks from the Queens border...Before 1900, "Queens County " went all the way to Montauk Point and Greenport on the North Fork..I still find chaffs if wheat and Hay seed in the cracks of the hayloft...love it   .Mad Dog 

Steamhead

random12345 said:

@lizg I agree that the "C" rad is probably a Crane but the 18" height seems odd. Are you sure it's not actually 23"? Is the width between sections 2.5"? See the attached pictures. The other one I can't tell. Take a pic from the side. Your camera seems to be fairly low resolution unfortunately. Hard to make out details. That or you're attaching a smaller file size instead of the actual size. For the older vertical tube-type rads, I also found this old Crane catalog as a possibility, but I think it's less likely:https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiuo.ark%3A%2F13960%2Ft8bg7g78c&seq=101
I would email the Smithsonian at NMAHLibrary@si.edu. Reference the following the collections and ask them to scan and send you a pdf of any trade catalogs containing radiators from before 1900:
Walworth: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/SILNMAHTL_27358
Nason: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/SILNMAHTL_30977
Crane: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/SILNMAHTL_11998
Here is a Crane catalog from 1931, but the 18" height is not listed: https://archive.org/details/craneradiatorsne00cran/page/10/mode/2up

The Crane is a later "small-tube" rad. This type came out around 1939, and is still made today.

With the feet embedded in the floor, it's probably 20" high in reality.

random12345

I see now. It looks so old in the picture I just assumed it was a large tube. I agree it's an obsolete slenderized tube. 19" high and 2.3 sq. ft./section = 46 total.
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/catsy.782/Baseboard+and+Radiators+Product+Data+Sheet.pdf
@lizg I would be interested in seeing a pic of the other rad from the side and one from the front higher resolution. See attached.

random12345

Kept looking, couldn't find any other catalogs that had your "Walworth" rads. I actually think they were made by a different manufacturer. I'd double check each rad to make sure none of the tubes are missing, because sometimes the interior tubes were removed while leaving the outer ones in place. You can approximate the EDR of those rads directly by measuring the circumference of each tube X the length + the surface area of the tops of the tubes and the base. I also read in this book by JH Mills that in the early days of the industry some rads were overrated: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89088933221&view=1up&seq=48. The EDR ratings from those early days should be taken with a grain of salt. Two rads from different manufacturers with the same commercial rating had significantly different steam condensation rates: