Analyze the diagram

SteamtoHotWater

Okay, this is my first sixth attempt. Please, critique away.
Firstly, please make certain that everything works. I’m a complete newb. I’ve definitely made some mistakes, so point them out. It would be really helpful to explain why something is wrong in addition to pointing out the error.
Secondly, if something is code questionable, or otherwise dangerous, please let me know.
Lastly, as I have zero experience, I have no loyalty to a certain methodology or brand. If, in your experience, some manufacturer is janky, speak up. If, I’d be better served approaching this project in a completely different way, I’d like to hear your thoughts. For instance, it’s been mentioned that I might be better served with two manifolds for the different levels - I’m looking into it.
The PEX loops are run in between joists with extruded aluminum heat plates attached to the subfloor, below wood floors (tile in the bathroom). The empty connections on the manifold will be capped for potential future expansion. The drawing is mostly to scale. Though, I imagine the pipe runs won’t exactly follow those paths.
I would like to have two zones on the first floor, as the living room gets a lot more sunlight than the back of the house. But I’m not married to the idea. For one thing, I don’t know a good way of controlling those actuators - suggestions are welcome.
The second floor doesn’t need to be zoned. But I do need the larger bedroom, in orange, to have zero heat, or as close as possible. Would it be bad to use the balancing valve to just reduce the flow to near nothing? If there isn’t an easy way to reduce the heat to the orange room, I might just leave that loop unconnected.
A big advance, “Thank you!” to the collective you for taking the time to evaluate the diagram.

GGross

The gas line needs a dirt leg, need to add a tee, nipple and cap. Not sure if code counts the appliance connector as a union but I would add a black pipe union as well.

It would be a decent idea to look into variable speed pumps, if your zones are satisfying regularly a fixed speed pump probably won't be the best choice in this case

I would add a service valve to the expansion tank, in case of failure. Webstone makes a nice one with drain spot

SteamtoHotWater

GGross said:

The gas line needs a dirt leg

It has one, though it's pretty far away.

GGross said:

need to add a tee, nipple and cap.

The current gas line, to my old boiler, has all three. Though it's about eight inches off the ground. I'll update my drawing.

GGross said:

Not sure if code counts the appliance connector as a union.

I'll investigate.

GGross said:

It would be a decent idea to look into variable speed pumps, if your zones are satisfying regularly a fixed speed pump probably won't be the best choice in this case

Could you elaborate? I don't know what you mean by, "if your zones are satisfying regularly." Do you have a variable speed pump that you recommend?

GGross said:

I would add a service valve to the expansion tank, in case of failure. Webstone makes a nice one with drain spot

Will do. I'll update the drawing.

Mad Dog_2

Taco or Webstone Isolation Flanges on Circulator.  Mad Dog  🐕 

hot_rod

I would suggest an ECM delta P circulator 
Also a magnetic separator to protect it.

Better yet a Sep 4 gives you air , dirt, magnetic and hydraulic separation. Plus a small buffer

SteamtoHotWater

hot_rod said:

I would suggest an ECM delta P circulator

I will look into it. Thanks.

hot_rod said:

Better yet a Sep 4 gives you air, dirt, magnetic and hydraulic separation. Plus a small buffer

Trying to understand the need for this. Other than the new boiler and the new manifold, the water shouldn't contact much metal. Inherently dirty water?

hot_rod

Many metals are used in hydronics. You will have steel, iron, copper, stainless, maybe aluminum. These metals in the presence of water will rust or corrode to some degree. A dirt separator and magnetic separator will keep any particles out if the pumps, valves , boiler, etc

Think if it as an oil and air filter in your car or truck

SteamtoHotWater

hot_rod said:

These metals in the presence of water will rust or corrode to some degree. A dirt separator and magnetic separator will keep any particles out if the pumps, valves , boiler, etc

Got it. I'll add something.
On your Caleffi Sep 4 recommendation, could you possibly explain why my set up needs hydraulic separation?

dko

SteamtoHotWater said:

On your Caleffi Sep 4 recommendation, could you possibly explain why my set up needs hydraulic separation?

You have a pump in your boiler and then another for your radiant manifold. If the pump in the boiler was enough for your entire system and the boiler could handle said flow through it's heat exchanger I'd say no need for separation. Hydraulic separation creates a zone with low pressure drop which is ideal for air separation but also to let your two pumps provide their flow rates without interference from each other.

You have a LLH manifold in your drawing which is hydraulic separation. Many balk at the price of a Sep4 but in my opinion is very cost effective especially if you are incorporating all the components separately.

This would be your air separator, LLH manifold, magnetic dirt separator. If you were to buy the manufacturer's LLH it is usually more than half the price of a Sep 4. Then the other two units bring the total above what a Sep4 would cost anyway. Now you have multiple parts consolidated in one unit and you have a mini buffer tank.

Biggest plus is the piping freedom you get from not using the LLH under the combi. You don't need to put those bulky isolation/purge valves right below the combi unit where it's cramped with the domestic valves. Pipe it in anywhere!

Also you are missing the relief valve for the heating side in your diagram. There should be a spot for it on top of the unit next to the air valve.

SteamtoHotWater

dko said:

This would be your air separator, LLH manifold, magnetic dirt separator. If you were to buy the manufacturer's LLH it is usually more than half the price of a Sep 4. Then the other two units bring the total above what a Sep4 would cost anyway. Now you have multiple parts consolidated in one unit and you have a mini buffer tank.

Biggest plus is the piping freedom you get from not using the LLH under the combi. You don't need to put those bulky isolation/purge valves right below the combi unit where it's cramped with the domestic valves. Pipe it in anywhere!

Alright, you two have me convinced. Lemme redraw some things.
Is a wye strainer still needed?

dko said:

Also you are missing the relief valve for the heating side in your diagram. There should be a spot for it on top of the unit next to the air valve.

Okay.

HVACNUT

Why are looking at a cartoon? Can we see the real thing?

SteamtoHotWater

HVACNUT said:

Why are looking at a cartoon?

Because I'm an artist.

HVACNUT said:

Can we see the real thing?

Sure. I think I'll have it built in 2-3 months. I'll definitely post a photo.
Okay, version 3 is up.
I've added the SEP4. I got rid of a wye strainer, because with the SEP4 it seemed redundant. I've changed the pump. Please check all my valves and piping - I'm getting lost.
Also, anyone care to chime in about the best way of controlling my actuators? I also need a good way of ensuring the orange bedroom gets next to no heat.

EdTheHeaterMan

So I have been following this and have made some small tweaks. Version 3EY


1. Not sure you need a Watts 9D where the ? is
2. Added a Watts 911S to the closed loop where the water feed should be. The Watts 911S is a combination 9D and an 1156 pressure reducing valve. I have used these as a water feed setup for ages. also notice ball valve on both sides of it. that way you can shut off the street water perssure and the boiler water pressure if you need to service it in the furute
3. Added the 30PSI relief valve that comes with the boiler and removed the relief valve you located on a pipe somewhere else. (near the ?
4. Added 4 zone actuators to the second floor. you need to shut them off or they will heat anytime a first floor zone is calling.
4a. You and use one zone valve in place of 4 actuators if you choose to have a separate second floor manifold. You need only zone valve off the feed pipe to the second floor manifold. one zone valve in leu of 4 actuators mighe be a better design. (See attachment)
5. I did not put a ? on the Caleffi MixCal Mixing valve, however I'm not sure it is necessary. I believe the Larrs controls can regulate the temperature without the need for that additional MixCal valve, however I yield that question to @hot_rod. He would know better.
6. The last modification I made is the supply and return from the boiler to the SEP4. That need not be primary secondary as you have in your Version 3 drawing. That would be a problem for the boiler circulator to put the heated water into the SEP4. There needs to be a direct path for the boiler circ. pump to the SEP4. With the closely spaced tee arrangement you have, the boiler water can short circuit from the supply (Backwards) to the return and completely miss the SEP4. If you did do that piping arrangement for some other reason, you will need an additional circ. pump to move the water thru that "Primary Loop" between the boiler closely spaced tees and the SEP4. Totally unnecessary in my opinion.

SteamtoHotWater

EdTheHeaterMan said:

So I have been following this and have made some small tweaks.

Wow. Thanks. Studying right now. I'm sure I'll have questions.

SteamtoHotWater

EdTheHeaterMan said:

1. Not sure you need a Watts 9D where the ? is

I knew I needed backflow prevention, and put it there based on guessing from photos I'd seen.

EdTheHeaterMan said:

2. Added a Watts 911S to the closed loop where the water feed should be. The Watts 911S is a combination 9D and an 1156 pressure reducing valve. I have used these as a water feed setup for ages. also notice ball valve on both sides of it. that way you can shut off the street water perssure and the boiler water pressure if you need to service it in the furute

Interesting. And it's sharing the expansion tank? I was wondering if I need two expansion tanks, or if the DHW side even needed one. I don't understand why the CH needs a water feed. Aren't I just going to fill it once, and then maybe check it seasonly?
The pressure reducing valve prevents excess pressure from the CH from interfering with the DHW, is that right? And there's no risk of crossover because of the 9D?

EdTheHeaterMan said:

3. Added the 30PSI relief valve that comes with the boiler and removed the relief valve you located on a pipe somewhere else.

Whoops. Somehow I thought that was the picture of the mfg relief valve. Got confused between the air vent and pressure relief valve and just omitted the latter. I'll update.

EdTheHeaterMan said:

4a. You and use one zone valve in place of 4 actuators if you choose to have a separate second floor manifold. You need only zone valve off the feed pipe to the second floor manifold. one zone valve in leu of 4 actuators mighe be a better design. (See attachment)

I think this is the way. I'll update accordingly.
Is there a system that controls the four actuators and a zone valve?

EdTheHeaterMan said:

5. I did not put a ? on the Caleffi MixCal Mixing valve, however I'm not sure it is necessary. I believe the Larrs controls can regulate the temperature without the need for that additional MixCal valve, however I yield that question to @hot_rod. He would know better.

I put it there because of a diagram in the manual and also it reads:

Manufacturer strongly recommends the use of an anti-scald mixing valve at domestic hot
water outlet (boiler location) to reduce potential for scalding. Contact Manufacturer for recommended models. Check with local codes.

At the same time, there is an integral mixing valve. I don't know why I would need both.

EdTheHeaterMan said:

7. The last modification I made is the supply and return from the boiler to the SEP4. That need not be primary secondary as you have in your Version 3 drawing.

I strongly suspected I had this drawn incorrectly. Thank you for confirming.

Thanks again for taking the considerable time to correct my mistakes and advise. I'll redraw and upload sometime tomorrow.

SteamtoHotWater

I decided to stay up late and work on version 4, now uploaded. Made most of the suggestions supplied by EdTheHeaterMan.
Got rid of the Watts 9DM.
Trusting Ed’s experience (versus my complete lack of it) I went ahead and drew the water feed line. Though, I still don’t understand why I need one. Am I losing some amount of water vapor while heating for CH? I also added the suggested Watts 911S and valves.
Added the missing relief valve on top of the unit.
Split the manifold in two.
Added the zone valve and motor that I think Ed was pointing me to.
Because the install manual seems to insist on one, I left the Caleffi MixCal. But if it’s redundant, I have no problem taking it out.
Fixed the primary/secondary mistake connections to the Laars.
I still have no good idea how to control those actuators and now, additionally, the zone valve.

I sincerely appreciate everyone’s input.

Mad Dog_2

This is becoming a Masterpiece!  (With the "Cake Bosses" directing).  You're gonna have the best boiler room in town....Mad Dog 🐕 

GGross

In the case of @EdTheHeaterMan drawing I think I would pipe the expansion tank on the return pipe of the boiler side of the low loss header so you can keep it on the suction side of the internal pump.

As for the mixing valve, most manufacturers recommend one on combi boilers. If you are heating baseboard with a combi at max temp, and it switches to DHW, I have seen the hot water come out of a faucet at over 140 F. with infloor heat it is not as big of a deal if you are keeping the supply temp low like it should be.

I would be surprised if that boiler had a mixing valve built in though? Usually there is a diverting valve inside the combi unit, but that does not function as a mixing valve. Do you have a picture of the book showing the integral mixing valve?

hot_rod

There are 3 states that I know of that require mixing valves on any an all hoy water devices. No harm in having a mix valve if you want an extra protection level. The tank or heater needs to run about 25° hotter than the mix temperature for most mix valves, so you need to run at least 145° for the valve to regulate properly.

The Caleffi 520 is a fairly unique mix valve. It only requires an 18° temperature difference, so you could run the hw at 138°.

It is a fast responding valve, ideal for tankless, combi boilers and tankless coils in boilers.

It has 100% shutoff if the cold side failed for some reason, scald protection.

The unique angle pattern saves some piping when installed on a tank, for example.

Also the Caleffi AutoFill combo is unique as it is a fast fill valve without needing to move any levers or screws, set the fill pressure you want and walk away and start your purge process, very handy

EdTheHeaterMan

So there are still some tweaks that you may want to consider. @GGross has a good point on expansion tank location. I have started to answer the control issue. I am most familiar with TACO zone valve controls but I'm sure that Bob Rohr has a better one! You must consider the onboard transformer of the Taco ZVC403 control. It has enough power to operate 4 power heads. you will be connecting 5 power heads. Depending on the current draw of the power head, you may need to upgrade the 24 Volt transformer. i'll put a shout out to @hot_rod for his opinion on the alternate zone controls offered by others. They may address the concern.



I'm a Taco man at heart but I'm open to other options.

I believe that the system pump (CH) can be wired into the boiler, or it can be wired into the Zone Control panel. The Boiler pump is usually internally wired to the boiler control.

SteamtoHotWater

Version 5 is up.
Left in a mixing valve, for now.

GGross said:

…I think I would pipe the expansion tank on the return pipe of the boiler side of the low loss header so you can keep it on the suction side of the internal pump.

Done.
Hopefully, correctly. I added some arrows because I was getting confused. Please double check my work.

GGross said:

I would be surprised if that boiler had a mixing valve built in though? Usually there is a diverting valve inside the combi unit, but that does not function as a mixing valve. Do you have a picture of the book showing the integral mixing valve?

It's labeled as a "mixing valve." Is it really just a diverting valve?

hot_rod said:

There are 3 states that I know of that require mixing valves on any an all hoy water devices.

Could you name them? I checked codes, and if I'm reading it correctly, only "public" places are required to have mixing valves.

hot_rod said:

No harm in having a mix valve if you want an extra protection level

I'm not so much worried about extra protection as violating code. Two mixing valves seems unnecessary. But the install manual definitely asks for one.

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I have started to answer the control issue.

Studying what you posted now.

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I am most familiar with TACO zone valve controls… I'm a Taco man at heart but I'm open to other options.

I'm easily swayed. If you're a Taco man, I'm a Taco man. Do you have a favorite Taco zone valve?
Additionally, if I were to dump the idea of having two zones on the first floor via the four actuators, I would need two zone valves, correct? One for the first floor manifold and one for the second floor manifold? Still leaning towards using actuators for the first floor, just thinking out loud.

hot_rod

As for transformer sizing, what is the current draw of the zone actuators? I think most brands are now low current draw actuators. Caleffi TwisTops are 250 mA. So add up the number of actuators.

Its also a good idea to look at the thermostat draw. Some power stealers pull a high draw when they recharge, add that into transformer sizing.

Caleffi ZVR 3 &4 come with a 40 VA, and a second 40 can snap and plug in, for 80VA

The ZVR 6 has two 40VA as standard, 80VA

Also the transformers in Caleffi relays are in parallel, so the VA is across all the valve connections

Some relay brands split the transformers, so 40 VA on 3 connections, 40VA on the other 3

GGross

I can't say I have seen that mixing valve in a combi before. I would probably still install a mixing valve since the book recommends it. I think I'll ask our local rep about the valve, I don't deal with them much but I'll let you know if I get any info from them.

EdTheHeaterMan

SteamtoHotWater said:

Version 5 is up.
Left in a mixing valve, for now.

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I am most familiar with TACO zone valve controls… I'm a Taco man at heart but I'm open to other options.

I'm easily swayed. If you're a Taco man, I'm a Taco man. Do you have a favorite Taco zone valve?
Additionally, if I were to dump the idea of having two zones on the first floor via the four actuators, I would need two zone valves, correct? One for the first floor manifold and one for the second floor manifold? Still leaning towards using actuators for the first floor, just thinking out loud.

So I retired more than 4 years ago. For over 30 years I preferred Taco over the B&G products mostly because I believe they were about the same quality at a lower price point. Also, 30 years is a long time to be loyal to a product line. There was one exception, I prefer Honeywell zone valves (the V8043) over the Taco 570 valves. Less Drama using a 4 wire as opposed to a 3 wire

That said, if you look at my post I was slowly converting to Caleffi products for their slightly better engineering, designs, and ideas. On the Zone Control for example, the 4 zone Caleffi panel takes into consideration that you may have a need for more than 40VA transformer. Their micro bubble air eliminator has been combined with a dirt separator and a Magnet equipped separator. Interesting features that could address some of the newer problems I have encountered on some of my customers.

New innovative products have also had new side effects that we never had in the 1970s and 1980s installations. Rubber (Onix) radiant heat jobs I inherited from retired plumbers have clogged up. ModCom boilers (like your Laars boiler) have brought a new dimension with newer issues never thought of in the previous century's systems. Those new products of years past are now getting to be 20 and 30 years old and we are dealing with what didn't work out so well. @hot_rod is on top of those things, and the Caleffi products seem to cover those issues before the competition does.

I also believe that the Caleffi zone valve has a 4 wire actuator (the reason I liked Honeywell) and it may solve some of the V8043 issues like the gear mechanism failure on older valve actuators. I have never used one so I can not indorse or condemn. I can only say that I used Honeywell and they were good. The Taco 570 is a well built valve with a bullet proof actuator (if properly installed they outlast the honeywell actuator in my opinion). I'm not a fan of the Taco Zone Sentry valve and actuator. Mostly because the valve actuator design has planned obsolescence build into the motor closing capacitor IMHO. I had one customer that needed 3 new actuators every 4 years.

So I would try the Caleffi zone panel and use the Caleffi hydronic specialties. Stick with the Taco pump and I wouldn't be opposed to trying the Caleffi zone valve. Upinor for the manifold and actuators seem to be a good choice. But purchase at least 2 spare actuators. Seems that there are lots of questions on finding old manifold valve actuators that pop up here from time to time. Leave the replacement actuators on a shelf at the manifold location. Even if you need to put them in a plastic bag and tie them to the manifold so they don't get lost.

WOW. I didn't think I was going to be so long winded. Oh well, that's what I do!

Ramblings of an old man.

Mr. Ed

EdTheHeaterMan

Another few tweaks. Moving ball valves to places where they will do a little better job of isolating components so entire boiler system will not need to be drained.
1. Move the fill valve to also isolate the expansion tank from the system will make servicing the expansion tank and other fill valve items easier
2. Add a valve to the cold side of the mix valve. this will facilitate repair or replacement of that valve in the future. (Small Red Arrow) this way all three ports have a shutoff.
3. Install circulator with isolation valve flanges. That will eliminate the need for one of the ball valves in between the SEP4 and the Taco ECM pump.
4. Add a valve to the bottom left port on the SEP4
5. renamed some of the purge tee fittings

SteamtoHotWater

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Ramblings of an old man.

Ramblings of old men with lots of professional heating experience are the best kinds of ramblings. I'm studying every word.

Currently, I'm putting together a spreadsheet with all my parts. Then I'm going to finalize a version 6 schematic that I'll post for everyone's approval. Then I guess I'm ordering.

Still have couple questions. Still looking for the best method of keeping my one (orange) bedroom cold. Can I just adjust the flow rate so that it gets nearly nothing? Or is that going to cause some sort of imbalance? Putting an actuator on it seems like a waste as I truly don't want any heat going to it.

Also, is anyone aware of a handheld copper press tool that does 1 1/4" diameter? Shopping around, it looks like there's no such thing. Really not looking forward to testing my sweating skills.

SteamtoHotWater

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Another few tweaks.

Thanks. Will incorporate.

hot_rod

SteamtoHotWater said:

Ramblings of an old man.

Ramblings of old men with lots of professional heating experience are the best kinds of ramblings. I'm studying every word. Currently, I'm putting together a spreadsheet with all my parts. Then I'm going to finalize a version 6 schematic that I'll post for everyone's approval. Then I guess I'm ordering. Still have couple questions. Still looking for the best method of keeping my one (orange) bedroom cold. Can I just adjust the flow rate so that it gets nearly nothing? Or is that going to cause some sort of imbalance? Putting an actuator on it seems like a waste as I truly don't want any heat going to it. Also, is anyone aware of a handheld copper press tool that does 1 1/4" diameter? Shopping around, it looks like there's no such thing. Really not looking forward to testing my sweating skills.

Pretty much all the wholesaler’s have  press tools to rent, maybe a loaner if you purchase all the parts from them

SteamtoHotWater

hot_rod said:

Pretty much all the wholesaler’s have  press tools to rent, maybe a loaner if you purchase all the parts from them

Good to know. I'll call around.

SteamtoHotWater

Okay. Version six is up.
Tried to incorporate all of Ed's advise. Moved some isolation valves around. Switched to a Taco zone valve. Put in isolation flanges, which I didn't know even existed.

What's does everyone think? Is it golden?