Pex - Is the extra cost worth it...
Im finally getting around to the big shop slab i asked questions about earlier in the year. It's not huge 4800sqft. The owner of this shop is feeling the squeeze on the pocket book and he sees there are pex brands online that sell for much less money and still have an O2 barrier. I personally always just use Uponor, its always been great. Any out there see a problem with burying the cheaper pex in a slab to save some dollars?
Montpelier Vt
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Does the owner of the shop use the cheapest materials possible in his or her work? If so, fine -- but remind me not to patronize that shop for work. That approach to workmanship just isn't my style...Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England6 -
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While Uponor HePex is great, the added cost is not even close to worth it for something that's going to be embedded in a slab anyway. With that said, trash like Vevor and whatever else you find on Amazon is worth exactly what you pay for it. Pex-A of any brand is more flexible than B or C, but again, when embedded in a regular building slab, serves no purpose. If/when it freezes, it bursts just the same as B or C would. I have installed thousands of miles of pex in slabs, and have used a little bit of everything. I always go back to Everhot pex-B unless it's snowmelt where the slab may heave. HePex is absolutely not worth the money. I don't care much for Rehau or HeatLink myself as they're not very flexible for A. Mr Pex is great, and a fraction of the cost of HePex but the last couple years Heliopex from Uponor has been available at a pretty good price as well if you need pex-A. On that note, it's still 50% more expensive than quality pex-B like Sioux Chief or Everhot. Rifeng and Bluefin is great budget tubing as well- I've got hundreds of thousands of feet of each in to date.0
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ANYTHING buried under a slab should not get the short end of the stick...Really Foolish. Mad Dog 🐕0
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Rifeng is the pex tubing manufacturer for Riifo, Bluefin, Everhot, and previously Zurn. They will be the exactly the same pex between the brands.
Cixi Welday is the pex fitting manufacturer for Zurn, Legend, Matco-Norca, some Sioux Chief, Mr.Pex, Nibco.
Everhot uses Hailiang fittings.
Uponor, Rehau, Mr.Pex, Sioux Chief would be some of the brands that both manufacture and distribute their own pex.
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I don't think the OP was suggesting it should.Mad Dog_2 said:ANYTHING buried under a slab should not get the short end of the stick...Really Foolish. Mad Dog 🐕
It sounds like they're asking if anyone has actually seen a difference between the cheaper brands and more expensive.
I only use Uponor and the biggest decision I made was using plastic fittings instead of brass, but I always stuck to Uponor and expansion fittings. But I use incredibly little compared to guys running thousands of feed of this stuff with hundreds or thousands of fittings.
I too am curious if anyone has actually seen a difference between brands and if so, what?
I have seen where the "cheap stuff" is equal or even outperforms the name brand stuff. I have seen Chinese stuff outperform and last longer than domestic stuff. Of course, I've also seen the opposite I.E. I'll only use Ward or Anvil black iron fittings. So, I am very curious what others have seen in the real world.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Chrisj nailed it. He will put whatever is going to be long lasting and zero worries.I’m curious if any of the less expensive would be that?Tom
Montpelier Vt0 -
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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psb75 said:Along with the pipe quality, consider the tools and fittings you want to work with and rely on. I think Uponor is the 'gold standard.' The extra money for 500' of 1/2" Uponor pipe and fittings is not gonna 'break' anyone.
These tend to show up more in plumbing systems running higher pressure.
The Rehau system seems to address that concern best.
There are a number of listings on the tube that address all the conditions you will encounter.
I would not expand a B pex!Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Chris J..did we read the same sentence of the original poster? I think one can infer, "buying the cheaper PEX and burying in a slab to save a few dollars," that one is looking to take a "shortcut" or cut corners, No?? Of course, there's a difference...thats why its half the cost! Its been common industry knowledge in the last 25 years that this is the case. I've seen and ripped out various cheaper knock offs of many products.not just Pex or the joints either..You stay with the high quality name brands, you generally have little to no problems. Call backs are BRUTAL for a business....The trade is HARD Enough...go cheap on material qaulity will come back to haunt the installer but even WORSE, the paying customer. They're paying YOU for your "professional " opinion and experience. Would you "cheap out" on dental work, brakes for your family car? Most people want a professional opinion that is black & white and clear as possible..They NEED to be talked out of making a terrible boo boo. Nobody wants that! Burying ANY piping under a slab is NEVER the place to go cheap. You get one chance here. I have VERY STRONG opinions..this is a long known fact. My opinions are based on trial and error over 40 years. If I don't know a topic well, I'm not weighing in . I'm Not a know it all. However, what I do know, I own, will gladly openly debate it , and built my career and expertise adopting a Better way when I see one.. But, I will dig in for a Goal Line Stand when I call BULL---. I am known for my bluntness and gloves off style...love it or hate it. I impart advice and experience her as I do every day: I seek to prevent heartache and costly mistakes that I see made OVER AND OVER....I'd rather someone be annoyed or put off than sugar coat things. What I find amusing, Chris, is Your extremely in your face, over the top argumentative, "style." We've chatted privately so I know your background and what you do for a living. I have great respect for this. I really do. I think you're talented, smart, funny and a good guy overall. That being said, you come off to me that you not only feel EQAUL to some of us doing this 30-50 years,( very successful professionals in their own right) but that your ideas 💡 and methods are SUPERIOR. Your field may have some crossover, with ours which is cool. Let me ask you something? If I came on to a forum IN YOUR specific occupation, and constantly disputed the long accepted and proven methods and materials that YOU and YOUR
Super accomplished and successful practitioners lived and died by, wouldn't you and yours find THAT amusing, to say the least? If not more than annoying? Think about that and take deep breath and be honest. Peace ✌ ☮ Mad Dog0 -
@Tom_133
Look at uponor Heliopex. It is less money since they don't put the potable water certifications on it. Primary difference is that you cannot fix a kink with a heat gun, which the cheaper brands can't do anyway. Heliopex is a different style, not quite a Pex A and also not a Pex B. I think it only comes in 1/2", but they may have added a couple of more sizes. They developed it to have something that could be cost competitive on commercial jobs.
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Sioux Chief offers Pex-A tubing that is Made in USA and compatible with the Uponor expansion connectors. The last time I checked it is about 20% less expensive than hePEX.Tom_133 said:Hey All,
Im finally getting around to the big shop slab i asked questions about earlier in the year. It's not huge 4800sqft. The owner of this shop is feeling the squeeze on the pocket book and he sees there are pex brands online that sell for much less money and still have an O2 barrier. I personally always just use Uponor, its always been great. Any out there see a problem with burying the cheaper pex in a slab to save some dollars?0 -
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I’m seeing this, https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/hydronic-radiant-heat/barrier-pipe/sioux-chief-powerpex-reg-5-8-oxygen-barrier-pex-tubing/665x9h1000m/p-3289655538104338-c-8563.htm seems legit?
is it junk? Or is it acceptable?Tom
Montpelier Vt0 -
GGross said:@Robert_25 That tubing is Pex-B but they approve it for expansion.
I know what you are referring to, it is a different product. Here are the two:
https://www.pexuniverse.com/sioux-chief-1-2-x-1000ft-pex-b-oxygen-barrier-pex-tubing-orange
https://www.pexuniverse.com/sioux-chief-1-2-x-1000ft-pex-a-oxygen-barrier-pex-tubing
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So what do you guys think? I know we dont discuss pricing at least labor and what we do jobs for, but thats a huge difference. it's a 5k difference for what appears to be the same pex?Tom
Montpelier Vt0 -
Tom_133 Member Posts: it's a 5k difference
I see: $260 difference per roll.0 -
Prices based on
OXYGEN BARRIER
1/2" x 1,000ft roll
only publicly shown prices
everhot/bluefin pex-b - $250
everhot pex-a - $350
everhot/bluefin pex-al-pex - $465
mr.pex (a) - $620
sioux pex-a - $665
sioux pex-b (expandable) - $405
viega pex-b: $765
uponor hepex(a) - $845
you can see choosing uponor over rifeng pex is nearly 4x. On a larger job, that's a ton of money. So the questions was, is uponor worth 4x the price? Would the $250 roll do the job and last just as long?
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Again, no. It's not worth the extra money if it's being embedded in a slab. Pex-A in general serves zero additional purpose after the concrete is hard, and Uponor, Rehau, etc isn't going to warranty a damaged tube anyway. Literally the only benefit of any pex-A for slab applications is flexibility during install. There is nothing whatsoever besides that flexibility which warrants the added cost. Those who say otherwise, probably have never used anything else because their salesman or whoever told them that price equals quality. What's funny is a lot of these same guys will install a bottom shelf Navien boiler in the same system. For exposed tubing, heck yes HePex all the way. Embedded in a slab, the lower dollar Rifeng/Bluefin/Everhot and Sioux Chief pex-B is more than adequate. There's no reason to spend top dollar on something that's going to be encased in concrete for the rest of its life.2
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What you said makes sense to me, but Mad Dog's wall of text was much larger, so I'm going with him on this one
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el3 -
Another consideration is which companies and brands support our industry, support their communities. First in line for fundraisers, helping a contractor in need, etc. support this “free” heatinghelp site. Those costs are reflected in the pricing also.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream3 -
The idea that a salesmen pushes Uponor because it costs more doesn't really track. We sell many brands of pex, Uponor is our lowest margin product in that category and it is not even close, we make more money selling a roll of the cheap stuff, than we do an equal roll of the more expensive Uponor.
There are other factors why so many are stuck on a brand of pex. Around here the Uponor people worked hard to win contractor support. They provided training when nobody else wanted in on the market, they provided design support before the days where design software was readily available. They provided some of the earliest design software for free, they have a full product catalog offering and not just 3 popular sizes.
I am not knocking any other brand, as I said I sell many brands of pex, just trying to point out that product cost is only one factor, and does not always equal higher commission for the sales person
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Very true for resellers not for commission based sales and manufacturer's reps. they had a blast with all the price increases.0
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I can truly except Mad Dogs argument and 99% of the time its the same thinking as mine. If it was my job for my house I go Uponor. If you know Vermonters then you would know SOME of them feel they know everything and unless there is an undeniable fact why the cheaper stuff is worse then they dont listen. It's taken me months to get him to put chairs in the slab to keep the tube up so we can gain some efficiency and a little quicker reaction time. I understand what Groundup is saying as well, but I dont want this to be another entran situation and I end up with egg on my face.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts.Tom
Montpelier Vt1 -
Tom_133 said:
I can truly except Mad Dogs argument and 99% of the time its the same thinking as mine. If it was my job for my house I go Uponor. If you know Vermonters then you would know SOME of them feel they know everything and unless there is an undeniable fact why the cheaper stuff is worse then they dont listen. It's taken me months to get him to put chairs in the slab to keep the tube up so we can gain some efficiency and a little quicker reaction time. I understand what Groundup is saying as well, but I dont want this to be another entran situation and I end up with egg on my face.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
There's a lot worse things to have on your face than egg.
Kind of a weird saying actually. I wonder where that came from.
EDIT : Best I can tell, bad actors getting pelted with eggs..... I guess that makes sense.Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Was Orangeburg really a failure? I thought it lasted a fairly long time?psb75 said:Entran? How about Entran II or Onyx? Or... Orangeburg?
So many pitfalls. So little time.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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You guys are right! I don't recall ever being offered or seen FREE training from these Ersatz knockoffs. I've never had a reason to switch from Wirsbo/Uponor, Taco, Burnham, now Caleffi, Gerber, Gorton, et cetera. Their trainers became industry allies and friends John Barba, Dave Holdorf, Tim Doran....part of the Fambly. A previous poster commented on their generosity too!! Companies of this caliber are not too common today, and I believe in loyally supporting them back! That's Value personified..I'm 💃 dancin with the one who brought me to the dance We certainly have different philosophies on the products we install. Thats whatd great about a Fee Society....Always looking to substitute cheaper products in place of a higher quality proven product is a race to the bottom in my eyes.I want A Chef whose stew uses the best and freshest vegetables and meat 🍖 😋. Many chefs would throw the old potatoes 🥔 or butcher scraps in because "no one's gonna know...we can save a few bucks on each bowl 🥣. To each his own Mad Dog 🐕1
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You haven't had Egg on your face until you had a rotten duck egg smashed in to it....1970s Hazing on the Farm 🚜. Most horrendous odor ever...worse than decomposing human and animals, Dental Cuspidor wastes, Rancid Commercial Grease traps...Water fountain wastes...Instant vomiting...Mad Dog 🐕 🤣2
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Mad Dog_2 said:You guys are right! I don't recall ever being offered or seen FREE training from these Ersatz knockoffs. I've never had a reason to switch from Wirsbo/Uponor, Taco, Burnham, now Caleffi, Gerber, Gorton, et cetera. Their trainers became industry allies and friends John Barba, Dave Holdorf, Tim Doran....part of the Fambly. A previous poster commented on their generosity too!! Companies of this caliber are not too common today, and I believe in loyally supporting them back! That's Value personified..I'm 💃 dancin with the one who brought me to the dance We certainly have different philosophies on the products we install. Thats whatd great about a Fee Society....Always looking to substitute cheaper products in place of a higher quality proven product is a race to the bottom in my eyes.I want A Chef whose stew uses the best and freshest vegetables and meat 🍖 😋. Many chefs would throw the old potatoes 🥔 or butcher scraps in because "no one's gonna know...we can save a few bucks on each bowl 🥣. To each his own Mad Dog 🐕
Top reps, like Rathe Associates in your area have endless training events, counter days, job site visits to help start up and troubleshoot. Trainings at engineering offices, trade show booths, etc, etc
You’d be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable tekmar person then Don Rathe
Ive been with him on troubleshooting calls he is an encyclopedia of hydronic knowledge for all his product lines,
PERT tube is another option to take some cost outBob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream2 -
Exactly Hot Rod. His son James just gave me a private training session on a few items. Classy Folks. Mad Dog 🐕1
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I wouldn't recommend any Pex but A , Especially if your burying your work in concrete ....
There was an error rendering this rich post.
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The wordsmithing in that one just deserves a repost.Mad Dog_2 said:Most horrendous odor ever...worse than decomposing human and animals, Dental Cuspidor wastes, Rancid Commercial Grease traps...Water fountain wastes...Instant vomiting...
30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
Currently in building maintenance.1
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