LP smaller diameter = higher pressure/BTUs? True??

rbphhc

hot_rod said:

Same question for the copper tube inside, is it ACR or plumbing sized, type M or L?

This table for copper tube covers everything inside at 11". Both coppers are listed, and again the plumbing size tube, type L column carries more.

A rule of thumb BTU table for appliances, although the instantaneous estimates are high, use your actual number there.
These are the most commonly used sizing tables NFPA, same ones you find in code books

The outside line is 1/2" OD *actual*. Which means it's either 3/8" L nominal or 1/2" ACR nominal. Both are 0.500" OD.

Bottom line is, outside line is probably delivering about 275k BTUs to the house. Which is NOT enough to carry all loads simultaneously.

However, as suggested, it *may* be enough to feed a smaller tankless or boiler, and stagger other uses.

Question: *IF* we scrimp on the outside line, and attempt to limp along on 275k BTUs, *IS* the 5/8" OD off the 2nd reg enough to feed a smaller tankless properly?

hot_rod

Looks like you have two more loads downstream of the tankless? So the line size needs to carry the capacity of all three loads, as I see it you need 3/4 from where it comes into the home to the tankless, then you could drop a size. A shutoff behind every appliance, flex to the appliance connection.

If you are running copper, at some point the cost of reducing tees offsets the cost of just running all 3/4”. Since things are close together and you have to buy an entire roll regardless.

If the lp company is doing the work they will, should do the sizing and pipe it accordingly.

We have no idea how the home will be used, how often the tankless runs? Most modulate their burners, so it would not pull the full 199 all the time. It depends on the flow and temperature it is asked to supply.

But if you are going to the trouble, just make it all correct. Maybe you get by fine with the small outside line until it can be upgraded. Hard for us to predict how the lp will be used😚

rbphhc

hot_rod said:

Looks like you have two more loads downstream of the tankless? So the line size needs to carry the capacity of all three loads, as I see it you need 3/4 from where it comes into the home to the tankless, then you could drop a size. A shutoff behind every appliance, flex to the appliance connection.

If you are running copper, at some point the cost of reducing tees offsets the cost of just running all 3/4”. Since things are close together and you have to buy an entire roll regardless.

If the lp company is doing the work they will, should do the sizing and pipe it accordingly.

We have no idea how the home will be used, how often the tankless runs? Most modulate their burners, so it would not pull the full 199 all the time. It depends on the flow and temperature it is asked to supply.

But if you are going to the trouble, just make it all correct. Maybe you get by fine with the small outside line until it can be upgraded. Hard for us to predict how the lp will be used😚

Thank you. Understood unpredictable. Property owner will have final say.

IMO, worth it to put in the upgraded line to the tank for well under a grand. But not my call. The owner and LP co will decide. I just want to advise them best.

Thanks for all the feedback, crew!

hot_rod

If there are more lp dealers around get some opinions. In my area the dealer would cover all the line costs if you signed up with them for a contract period.

Obviously they cover the costs somehow.

I ended up buying my own tanks and regs. I had 4 tanks between 3 buildings. That way I could shop prices and all the various pre buy, or price lock in deals

I used 6 different dealers over the years. Anymore all the big names are buying up the mom and pop shops and controlling the pricing. Getting stricter on tank recertification, reg updates, etc

In mild winters, come spring the smaller shops would dump prices, as they had to pay storage fees for gas they didn’t take from the bulk plants. I bought lp for .37 a gallon one spring.

yellowdog

everything on the left side to the tankless looks good but you will want to start the line to the stove and the heater at 5/8 od because it is currently undersized. or just have them run 3/4 ips to the stove and then reduce to 1/2 od to the heater. @GroundUp your sizing still doesnt compute with me. piping systems are designed at a 1# drop.

GroundUp

yellowdog said:

everything on the left side to the tankless looks good but you will want to start the line to the stove and the heater at 5/8 od because it is currently undersized. or just have them run 3/4 ips to the stove and then reduce to 1/2 od to the heater. @GroundUp your sizing still doesnt compute with me. piping systems are designed at a 1# drop.

The numbers don't compute with you because you do not understand what you are talking about. Delivery pressure minus final pressure = pressure drop. 10 PSI minus 11" equals 9.6 PSI pressure drop. If the final pressure were 9 PSI, then yes the 1# drop chart would be accurate. However the final pressure is 11", so the pressure drop is 9.6 PSI. See how that works?

hot_rod

GroundUp said:

yellowdog said:

everything on the left side to the tankless looks good but you will want to start the line to the stove and the heater at 5/8 od because it is currently undersized. or just have them run 3/4 ips to the stove and then reduce to 1/2 od to the heater. @GroundUp your sizing still doesnt compute with me. piping systems are designed at a 1# drop.

The numbers don't compute with you because you do not understand what you are talking about. Delivery pressure minus final pressure = pressure drop. 10 PSI minus 11" equals 9.6 PSI pressure drop. If the final pressure were 9 PSI, then yes the 1# drop chart would be accurate. However the final pressure is 11", so the pressure drop is 9.6 PSI. See how that works?

Looking at just the pressure drop in the tube from the tank to to 11” reg.

The unknown is what is the pressure drop when trying to move 345,000 btu thru the 1/2” tube.
We know in hydronics, compressed air, really anything transported through a tube, the higher the flow rate, the more pressure drop.

This is plotted on a second order curve, much like a pump curve, so resistance, it’s not a straight one to one ratio. In hydronics it depends on the fluid, also the temperature.
Head goes up considerably as flow goes up. Easy to see on pump and system curves for liquid. I suspect those curve charts exist for gasses? Same concept when you size compressed air piping for a shop. They start with larger diameter, drop as the get to the connections, based on the CFM you want at what pressure.

The chart or table that lp used calculate that for you, so they show pipe size, carrying capacity at 1 psi drop. So they give you the answer. I suspect trying to move 345 through a copper tube rated at 225/ 1 psi drop would calculate to a much larger drop then just another psi?

rbphhc

GroundUp said:

yellowdog said:

everything on the left side to the tankless looks good but you will want to start the line to the stove and the heater at 5/8 od because it is currently undersized. or just have them run 3/4 ips to the stove and then reduce to 1/2 od to the heater. @GroundUp your sizing still doesnt compute with me. piping systems are designed at a 1# drop.

The numbers don't compute with you because you do not understand what you are talking about. Delivery pressure minus final pressure = pressure drop. 10 PSI minus 11" equals 9.6 PSI pressure drop. If the final pressure were 9 PSI, then yes the 1# drop chart would be accurate. However the final pressure is 11", so the pressure drop is 9.6 PSI. See how that works?

Seems to me there's a difference between *static* pressure and *fluid* pressure. I.e. what size lines do you need to KEEP 10psi at the 2nd stage reg, or 11wc at the appliance when gas is MOVING, not just achieve it under no load.

Isn't that the whole reason we need adequately-sized pipes? Otherwise I could run 1/8" everywhere, and it would eventually reach proper static pressure. But turn on the hot water, and the tankless is instantly sucking vacuum.

You get more slurpee through a big straw than a tiny one, right?

hot_rod

rbphhc said:

GroundUp said:

yellowdog said:

everything on the left side to the tankless looks good but you will want to start the line to the stove and the heater at 5/8 od because it is currently undersized. or just have them run 3/4 ips to the stove and then reduce to 1/2 od to the heater. @GroundUp your sizing still doesnt compute with me. piping systems are designed at a 1# drop.

The numbers don't compute with you because you do not understand what you are talking about. Delivery pressure minus final pressure = pressure drop. 10 PSI minus 11" equals 9.6 PSI pressure drop. If the final pressure were 9 PSI, then yes the 1# drop chart would be accurate. However the final pressure is 11", so the pressure drop is 9.6 PSI. See how that works?

Seems to me there's a difference between *static* pressure and *fluid* pressure. I.e. what size lines do you need to KEEP 10psi at the 2nd stage reg, or 11wc at the appliance when gas is MOVING, not just achieve it under no load.

Isn't that the whole reason we need adequately-sized pipes? Otherwise I could run 1/8" everywhere, and it would eventually reach proper static pressure. But turn on the hot water, and the tankless is instantly sucking vacuum.

You get more slurpee through a big straw than a tiny one, right?

Hence the term flow curve🤓

yellowdog

@GroundUp do you understand first and second stage piping? it appears not. i am very well versed on it and design a lot of propane piping systems. i use the longest length method for my sizing. which method do you use? the first stage regulator takes the varying tank pressure and regulates it down to 10#. you size based on a 1# pressure drop to your second stage regulator which then reduces the pressure down to 11". pressure drop is not the delivery pressure minus the pressure at the appliances. open a rego book. all the sizing information needed is right there.

GroundUp

@yellowdog sigh..... Okay, you win. I will just go ahead and start over with the miles of gas systems I've designed and installed over my career because some guy on the internet says they don't work. Perhaps I'll venture out to the 400k boiler behind my shop and 199k tankless inside and tell them that they can't work with the 240ft of 1/2" copper run from my tank to their 2nd stage regulator. YOU may size however you wish, and sizing with a 1# drop is most certainly a conservative approach that'll always be adequate. The reality, however, is that this 1/2" line at 10 PSI from the first stage reg will easily flow double what the OP is asking of it. Bigger is better, sure- but it is absolutely NOT necessary.

rbphhc

GroundUp said:

@yellowdog sigh..... Okay, you win. I will just go ahead and start over with the miles of gas systems I've designed and installed over my career because some guy on the internet says they don't work. Perhaps I'll venture out to the 400k boiler behind my shop and 199k tankless inside and tell them that they can't work with the 240ft of 1/2" copper run from my tank to their 2nd stage regulator. YOU may size however you wish, and sizing with a 1# drop is most certainly a conservative approach that'll always be adequate. The reality, however, is that this 1/2" line at 10 PSI from the first stage reg will easily flow double what the OP is asking of it. Bigger is better, sure- but it is absolutely NOT necessary.

Again, if true, that's very good news. Is there any way to confirm the # of BTUs we have at the house with some kind of testing instrument?

I have personally designed exactly ZERO miles (and zero feet) of gas supply.

Question: if we have double what we need to the house, then would the existing 5/8" soft copper at 11WC over @ 12' be adequate to run a Rinnai 199k?

Also: I just looked at some so-called "half inch" poly gas line at HD. It's monstrous. As I wrote above, close to 1" OD, and nearly 3/4" (0.72) ID.

I continue to wonder if that's the source of the disagreement here.

The line WE have is "half-inch" copper L. Which as I'm sure you know is exactly 0.500" OD, and barely over 3/8" ID (apparently 0.430").

I'm many years removed from HS math, but I seem to recall the surface area of a circle (cross section of a tube) varies by the SQUARE of the radius. Pi(R*2).

Which for the poly = 0.407"sq, and for the copper = 0.145"sq. I.e. the poly is letting through almost 3 TIMES as much LP as the copper.

Big Gulp Straw.

Is that where we all diverged?

rbphhc

GroundUp said:

Perhaps I'll venture out to the 400k boiler behind my shop and 199k tankless inside and tell them that they can't work with the 240ft of 1/2" copper run from my tank to their 2nd stage regulator.

Ah, I see you say 1/2" copper. So this is clearly not a 'big poly' discrepancy.

(Not to try anyone's patience, but, to be ultra clear, that's 0.500" OD copper? Running 10psi off the 1st stage?)

And your 240' beats my piddling 170' all day.

So what size (iron?) are you running from your 2nd stage to your 400k boiler and 199k tankless?

Thanks for sticking with this, everybody.

hot_rod

1/2” copper L measures 1/2 inside 5/8” od, that is why it can carry more than 1/2” ARC. Which is why you need to know exactly the tube you have to answer your question accurately.

Copper “plumbing” pipe goes by ID so 1/2 copper L is 1/2 inside
Copper refrigeration tube
, ARC goes by OD so it is 1/2”, .500 outside

I’m not sure how you are measuring the tube, all tube is stamped as to what it is, if you can’t get an accurate measurement with a caliper, not a tape measure.

The answer to your question is in the tables that have been attached multiple times. The tables show both types of copper and the carrying capacity.

If you don’t believe or want to use the tables for sizing, your on you own🧐

Solid_Fuel_Man

Remember the second stage regualtor only needs to see 2 psi.....so if you start with 10 you can loose 8psi and the whole system will still work. 

It's the second (11WC) that really needs to be looked at. 

10psi LP can move a surprisingly large amount of BTUs in a small line. 

You could also look into a 2psi MaxiTrol system inside, or at least for some of the large appliances. 

hot_rod

The second stage reg needs the pressure that it is designed for
if the first stage reduces to 10 psi and the second stage is 10 psi to 11” it needs close to 10 psi according to the reg manufacturers 

I doubt it would be accurate a 2 psi inlet? The flow curve charts tell the story 

I see that some of the new Rinnai tankless will run  down as low as 4” pressure

But the other appliance in the house probably would not run, or run safely at 4” if they are designed for 11”

hot_rod

Regs are set at the factory, some have a bit of field adjustability 
Static pressure is what you would see with no gas flowing. So 1 st stage would show 10 psi Second stage shows 11””

Dynamic pressure is what you read as gas starts being pulled off at a load

The regulators job is to maintain steady pressure across its capacity range, operating in the hystersis

Similar to a pump curve where you have run out at one extreme, shutdown at the other

rbphhc

hot_rod said:

1/2” copper L measures 1/2 inside 5/8” od, that is why it can carry more than 1/2” ARC. Which is why you need to know exactly the tube you have to answer your question accurately.

If you don’t believe or want to use the tables for sizing, your on you own🧐

Not sure if this was intended for me, but as I've said several times, the outside line is 1/2" OD, inside is 5/8" OD. I have not been able to find stamping on either line (outside is buried in 3' of snow, inside is at least 30 years old and heavily patina'd), but I know enough to be within a few mils of the ID for both pipes.

Solid_Fuel_Man

@hot_rod I stand corrected. 5psi is the lowest pressure the Rego second stage regualtors I use are rated for. 

So with a 10 psi inlet, you can loose 5 psi, not the 8 I quoted. 

GroundUp

Soft copper (at least any I've ever seen) is measured and sold by OD just like ACR (refrigeration) tube. 5/8" nominal soft or ACR is 5/8" OD while 1/2" nominal hard tube in type L is also 5/8" OD. Therefore, when someone says 1/2" soft copper, that means 1/2" OD aka 3/8" ID which is what I have run 240ft from my 1st stage reg to my 2nd stage reg and is done every day by all the local LP suppliers. I've gas piped a number of poultry barns with 1.2M BTU worth of heaters, and have used a single 1/2" OD line from the tank bank with plenty of reserve capacity, the longest run being roughly 200ft from the tank bank to the 2nd stage regs. Our LP suppliers always provide 2nd stage regs, and they will allow 2-10# inlet pressure like any Itron or Maxitrol regulator does. As long as inlet pressure is 2 PSI or more, they will do their job as intended. Honestly I've seen an alarming amount of doubled up 2# to inches regs doubled up on the same line, so there is only maybe 10-12" inlet and the same on the outlet. They don't seem to care if the inlet pressure is below 2# but I would never do that on purpose. This does not have to be difficult.

rbphhc

GroundUp said:

Soft copper (at least any I've ever seen) is measured and sold by OD just like ACR (refrigeration) tube. 5/8" nominal soft or ACR is 5/8" OD while 1/2" nominal hard tube in type L is also 5/8" OD. Therefore, when someone says 1/2" soft copper, that means 1/2" OD aka 3/8" ID which is what I have run 240ft from my 1st stage reg to my 2nd stage reg and is done every day by all the local LP suppliers. I've gas piped a number of poultry barns with 1.2M BTU worth of heaters, and have used a single 1/2" OD line from the tank bank with plenty of reserve capacity, the longest run being roughly 200ft from the tank bank to the 2nd stage regs. Our LP suppliers always provide 2nd stage regs, and they will allow 2-10# inlet pressure like any Itron or Maxitrol regulator does. As long as inlet pressure is 2 PSI or more, they will do their job as intended. Honestly I've seen an alarming amount of doubled up 2# to inches regs doubled up on the same line, so there is only maybe 10-12" inlet and the same on the outlet. They don't seem to care if the inlet pressure is below 2# but I would never do that on purpose. This does not have to be difficult.

OK, well, we will have another real-world test soon. VT is socked in w/ 2ft of snow, and no one going to run new line to the tank anytime soon. So we are going to plumb the existing 5/8" OD to the new tankless w/ as short a run as possible. Will circle back with results in a few days.

hot_rod

Someone should tell the code, Lp, and reg folks that they are wasting their time publishing sizing tables. 

So much easier to just say 1/2” up to 1.2million btus at 200’😄

GroundUp

hot_rod said:

Someone should tell the code, Lp, and reg folks that they are wasting their time publishing sizing tables. 

So much easier to just say 1/2” up to 1.2million btus at 200’😄

Or perhaps those who don't quite grasp the relationship of BTU and pressure drop could stay in their lane? When the pressure drop is 9.6 PSI and the table is for 1 PSI, that is the wrong table for the application. Plain and simple. Notice how there are other tables with different pressure drops and therefore different BTU allowances? There is a reason for that. I respect the heck out of you Bob, but it's pretty low of you to make such a passive aggressive comment. This 1 PSI drop chart you're referencing is absolutely NOT accurate or even relevant for a system like this. There are 40 examples of that within 5 miles of where I am currently sitting, in poultry barns alone. Don't you think one of the 7 different local LP providers may have a little bit of experience on the subject, seeing as they are supplying the regulators AND lines?

hot_rod

I merely posted the tables that apply to the OP situation. Just a messenger.

if you feel those are misleading, wrong, whatever. Take that up with the engineers and manufacturers that develop the tables.

Flows and pressure drop applied to gas and fluids. Which is why tube comes in multiple sizes.

GroundUp

hot_rod said:

I merely posted the tables that apply to the OP situation. Just a messenger.

if you feel those are misleading, wrong, whatever. Take that up with the engineers and manufacturers that develop the tables.

Flows and pressure drop applied to gas and fluids. Which is why tube comes in multiple sizes.

Except for the part where your table does not apply to the OP's situation. I never stated or even implied that the table is inaccurate, nor have I stated or implied that anything that any engineer or MFG has placed in this table is inaccurate. I said it's the wrong table for this scenario, because the pressures listed are not relevant. A 1 PSI drop table is not at all relevant to this 9.6 PSI drop system. You and others trying to make a 1 PSI drop table the correct one for a 9.6 PSI drop system, simply put, are applying the wrong table- as I've already explained several times.

archibald tuttle

@GroundUp if i'm reading your posts right, you are mistaken in thinking that the first stage piping can accept a pressure drop to the second stage as long as the drop is not greater than the output of the second stage, but most second stage regulators are actually looking for 10 psi input nominally and aren't design to operater with lower than 10% deviation.

in the wild west, as it were, you could design a system like that with some kind of solenoid to the house piping that bypassed the regulator when the heavy load came on and the pipe loss would actually regulate the load. But, with a small excavator, looks pretty easy to upsize that inground piping and sounded like that was quoted at reasonable price. it is remotely possible you could crank the regulator at the tank to 15 (some are adjustable and that is the upper range) and then you could sustain a 5 or 6 lbs drop to your second stage regulator. but again, doesn't look like a bad idea to get a bigger pipe in there. I'm not sure re code on max 1st stage pressure in vermont but i'll check with a friend who does propane service there. what town are you in? The plastic is good. you will have steel sweeps out of the ground. i'm still waitng for my first failure on those 15 years and counting.

As to inside pressure and piping, one thing folks haven't mentioned is there are now 2 psi indoor systems with regulators at the appliances (there are often already standalone regulators or regulators incorporated in the gas valve of appliances but they are usually designed for max 14" WC (1/2 psi) input so you need additional regulation at the appliances but this can obviate some internal repiping. Not sure why your propane company shies from running 1" main. Maybe they don't often thread that large or stock those nipples and think its a PIA and quite possibly you would be fine with 3/4. I haven't done the fine math but your distances aren't long. But I also cannot see an objection to 1".

Finally, since you are in vermont and your tank is not buried, one thing no one has mentioned is the wetted surface problem as your tank empties. at 10 below, your tank can only evaporate 175,000 btus at 10% fill! Now, one answer to that when you look at the tables is just to keep the tank half or more full. or to tell folks to go easy on the hot water when its really cold at night. don't know if this is your place, or rental, how many baths at once. I have 4 baths running on 149,000 on demands. That is pushing their nominal supply parameters, but, in the good ole days, if everybody took a shower at once they emptied the tank hot water heater and didn't get ideal use depending on shower length. I tend to count on the stochastic habits of multiple tenants and its worked.

good luck with this.

brian

hot_rod

GroundUp said:

hot_rod said:

I merely posted the tables that apply to the OP situation. Just a messenger.

if you feel those are misleading, wrong, whatever. Take that up with the engineers and manufacturers that develop the tables.

Flows and pressure drop applied to gas and fluids. Which is why tube comes in multiple sizes.

Except for the part where your table does not apply to the OP's situation. I never stated or even implied that the table is inaccurate, nor have I stated or implied that anything that any engineer or MFG has placed in this table is inaccurate. I said it's the wrong table for this scenario, because the pressures listed are not relevant. A 1 PSI drop table is not at all relevant to this 9.6 PSI drop system. You and others trying to make a 1 PSI drop table the correct one for a 9.6 PSI drop system, simply put, are applying the wrong table- as I've already explained several times.

This is the table to size the line from
the tank 1st stage to the reg at the house. 1/2" ACR is the tube he has, @ 170'.
The second stage regs wants 10 psi, or within 10% of 10 psi, so the table shows a 1 psi drop.
show me the table you refer to with a 9.6 psi drop, or any other drop for first stage copper tube size.

Solid_Fuel_Man

@hot_rod I think the misunderstanding is that the second stage reg only needs to see something 5psi or greater. 

RegO which is what everyone uses in my area, states 5-20 psi input. Same table you posted, I posted as well with just the wording above the table included. 

rbphhc

archibald tuttle said:

@GroundUp if i'm reading your posts right, you are mistaken in thinking that the first stage piping can accept a pressure drop to the second stage as long as the drop is not greater than the output of the second stage, but most second stage regulators are actually looking for 10 psi input nominally and aren't design to operater with lower than 10% deviation.

in the wild west, as it were, you could design a system like that with some kind of solenoid to the house piping that bypassed the regulator when the heavy load came on and the pipe loss would actually regulate the load. But, with a small excavator, looks pretty easy to upsize that inground piping and sounded like that was quoted at reasonable price. it is remotely possible you could crank the regulator at the tank to 15 (some are adjustable and that is the upper range) and then you could sustain a 5 or 6 lbs drop to your second stage regulator. but again, doesn't look like a bad idea to get a bigger pipe in there. I'm not sure re code on max 1st stage pressure in vermont but i'll check with a friend who does propane service there. what town are you in? The plastic is good. you will have steel sweeps out of the ground. i'm still waitng for my first failure on those 15 years and counting.

As to inside pressure and piping, one thing folks haven't mentioned is there are now 2 psi indoor systems with regulators at the appliances (there are often already standalone regulators or regulators incorporated in the gas valve of appliances but they are usually designed for max 14" WC (1/2 psi) input so you need additional regulation at the appliances but this can obviate some internal repiping. Not sure why your propane company shies from running 1" main. Maybe they don't often thread that large or stock those nipples and think its a PIA and quite possibly you would be fine with 3/4. I haven't done the fine math but your distances aren't long. But I also cannot see an objection to 1".

Finally, since you are in vermont and your tank is not buried, one thing no one has mentioned is the wetted surface problem as your tank empties. at 10 below, your tank can only evaporate 175,000 btus at 10% fill! Now, one answer to that when you look at the tables is just to keep the tank half or more full. or to tell folks to go easy on the hot water when its really cold at night. don't know if this is your place, or rental, how many baths at once. I have 4 baths running on 149,000 on demands. That is pushing their nominal supply parameters, but, in the good ole days, if everybody took a shower at once they emptied the tank hot water heater and didn't get ideal use depending on shower length. I tend to count on the stochastic habits of multiple tenants and its worked.

good luck with this.

brian

Thank you, Brian, that was an eminently reasonable and informative post. I look forward to re-reading it several times.

Funny, I was just looking into 2psi internal systems yesterday. But not sure the landlord would want to spring for 5 or 6 individual regulators for the various appliances.

And the propane supplier told me it's illegal in VT to run greater than 10psi from tank to house in residential applications. So we are out of luck on both fronts, most likely.

Going to see how the Rinnai RU199iP does on 5/8 OD run short as possible from the 2nd stage. Still might be 15' or so. If we start seeing errors, we'll definitely have to upgrade.

rbphhc

Well, the Rinnai RU199 is up and running, on the existing 5/8 OD inside and 1/2 OD outside. So far, no errors, lots of hot water. (I like the condensing feature, btw! Feels like something's happening.)

In-floor heat is Phase II, happening shortly.

Question: flow is hot and strong directly out of the tankless. It's like a firehose. But at the faucet, more restricted. Likely debris in the faucet filter? Or could there be some other reason for the diminished flow?

I mean, it's fine and functional. Just seemed it was stronger when we had the tank heater. First stop, faucet filter, I guess.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, You could try back flushing the hot side of the fixture and line by capping off the spout and running cold water back into the hot side after removing hot side pressure.

Yours, Larry