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Navien Combi Sizing 240/xxxH

cloudd
cloudd Member Posts: 47
edited February 2023 in Radiant Heating
Radiant System:

-10x 300’ 1/2 joist trak under subfloor loops.
*I have used 395x 4’ uponor 1/2” pex joist trak plates*
I have supplemental heat if needed (2x 30,000 BTU NG fireplaces in these spaces)

-2x 300’ 1/2” per poored concrete loops



How many BTU’s would I require for the heating sustems maximum load (-4C to -6 lowest outside temp In winter)?


Navien makes multiple different sized combi boilers:

NCB 240/80H heat 80K btu
NCB 240/110H heat 1100K btu
NCB 240/130H heat 130K btu
NCB 240/150H heat 150K btu

How would I determine which Navien model would be adequate to supply enough heat while not over sizing it.





Comments

  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,395
    You need to figure out wall R value, windows, exposed walls ceiling height, etc 1st...
    There are far better options than a navien.
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 812
    Do a room by room heat loss calculation (or have one done) figure out what your btuh per sq. ft. needs to be for your preferred indoor temp. Also if a combi: your DHW needs. THEN size your boiler. Consider using: Viessmann, Lochinvar, Ideal, Rinnai, HTP, Bosch. Not Navien.
  • MatthewPK
    MatthewPK Member Posts: 5
    psb75 said:
    Do a room by room heat loss calculation (or have one done) figure out what your btuh per sq. ft. needs to be for your preferred indoor temp. Also if a combi: your DHW needs. THEN size your boiler. Consider using: Viessmann, Lochinvar, Ideal, Rinnai, HTP, Bosch. Not Navien.
    Why do you say "not navien?"
    cloudd
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,668
    MatthewPK said:


    Why do you say "not navien?"

    how much time do you have ?
    https://www.youtube.com/@navienleaks/videos
    known to beat dead horses
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,878
    All boilers need to size to the largest load, period:)
    With combis in residential U.S. applications the DHW load is often the larger, sometimes by quite a bit.

    So start with your desired DHW, be sure to use a reasonable incoming water temperature. That can vary from 33 degrees in Minnesota to 80F in Phoenix.

    The beauty of the mod cons is most all can turn down 10-1, and most can be locked down to better match the heat load. So 130K can usually turn down to 11,000 btu/hr.

    Additionally the lower you fire them, the more efficient they run. Plug in your operating temperature for the heating mode to get an idea of the efficiency difference between 100% and 25% firing.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 812
    See: neilc response above, as well as others' historically on this forum.
    I don't believe Navien has a 10:1 turndown ratio.
  • cloudd
    cloudd Member Posts: 47
    psb75 said:
    See: neilc response above, as well as others' historically on this forum. I don't believe Navien has a 10:1 turndown ratio.
    Navien’s claim 11:1 TDR.
  • cloudd
    cloudd Member Posts: 47
    edited February 2023
    neilc said:
    Why do you say "not navien?"
    how much time do you have ? https://www.youtube.com/@navienleaks/videos
    What are more reliable combi brands in your opinion?  I located am in Canada it did not appear that Bosch was available here when I search. Please include their heating BTU output and TDR if known.


    Navien is pretty common their maybe reasons for this? Is it cheaper?

  • cloudd
    cloudd Member Posts: 47
    psb75 said:
    Do a room by room heat loss calculation (or have one done) figure out what your btuh per sq. ft. needs to be for your preferred indoor temp. Also if a combi: your DHW needs. THEN size your boiler. Consider using: Viessmann, Lochinvar, Ideal, Rinnai, HTP, Bosch. Not Navien.
    Where can I find a good online heat loss calculator that I can input my information?
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,799
    edited February 2023
    Where can I find a good online heat loss calculator that I can input my information?
    There’s the rub! They all “work” but garbage in garbage out. They’re usually significantly high. It won’t matter for a combi unless you’re heating a large, leaky house so your DHW load should be much higher. 
    cloudd
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,878
    cloudd said:


    psb75 said:

    Do a room by room heat loss calculation (or have one done) figure out what your btuh per sq. ft. needs to be for your preferred indoor temp. Also if a combi: your DHW needs. THEN size your boiler. Consider using: Viessmann, Lochinvar, Ideal, Rinnai, HTP, Bosch. Not Navien.

    Where can I find a good online heat loss calculator that I can input my information?

    There are some free online calculators, some pretty basic, some more detailed. I think LoopCAD has a free trial version online. Watch the demo first to learn the inputs.

    \PikesPeak building department has a manual J work sheet for hand calcs on their site.

    https://www.calculator.net/btu-calculator.html
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    cloudd
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,395
    https://www.ibcboiler.com/consumer/products/sfc-superflow-1/

    The only combi I install. Over 100 installed. Great units.
  • cloudd
    cloudd Member Posts: 47
    edited February 2023
    Where can I find a good online heat loss calculator that I can input my information?
    There’s the rub! They all “work” but garbage in garbage out. They’re usually significantly high. It won’t matter for a combi unless you’re heating a large, leaky house so your DHW load should be much higher. 
    My DHW GPM is maxed 3 showers and 2 dishwashers. So I will need 199K btu for DHW for sure. Not like the dishwashers will be on at the same time as the showers anyways but I do need adequate DHW for the 3 showers.

    I just looked at Bosch Singular Combi’s: 5200(199K btu DHW / 140K btu heat) & 4000 (155K btu DHW /80K btu heat). They also have 10:1 TDR.  

    The Bosch Greenstar models are all out because the best model the Greenstar 151 maxes out at 150K btu for DHW and can’t provide enough DHW GPM for my requirements.

    It seems if I go with Bosch it has to be the Singular 5200(199K btu DHW / 140K btu for heat) .

    *My house isn’t leaky. I just renovated it. New insulation in attic, new windows, new doors. Sealed all of the lights. Plugs seem to have no noticeable leaks.*

    Did I miss anything?
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,799
    The other option would be not installing a combi - you could install a tank, either connected to the central heating or separate. If you have the floor space, it’s a good option. 
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,248
    edited February 2023
    Hi, To add the what @Hot_water_fan said, think about lower flow showerheads. If you had three 1.5 gpm heads and used 70% of that as hot, you would need 3.15 gpm of hot water. What equipment can do that?

    Yours, Larry
    Hot_water_fan
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,878
    It’s all in the numbers. Shower head flow rates are established at the code maximum 80psi, so if you run 50-60 psi, adjust accordingly. I bought nice 1.5 heads and run 60 psi, plenty of water for us

    So if you want 3showers at once crunch the numbers accordingly.

    Of course the sky is the limit, the homebuilders show was heavy on multiple head body spray shower displays, 5 gpm and up systems. And they were getting
    lots of attention
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Hot_water_fancloudd
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 812
    I think there can be such a thing as a "hot water fetish." No one has YET mentioned a "rain" shower head coupled with the "body/booty blasters". That's about 5 gpm right there. Home spa? Don't forget the "steam shower." What would the Deadmen think?
    cloudd
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,248
    Some of the Dead Men might have liked it :D

    Yours, Larry