Ecobee + American Standard Arcoliner?

HeatingN00b

Hello all, just acquired an American Standard Arcoliner. Old rusty is running fine at the moment.

As a house warming gift we received an ecobee premium. When I checked the connection to the furnace I noticed it only has two wire connections ( T / T). All other wires were taped off and not used. 

Would anyone know how I can install the ecobee premium to the American Standard Arcoliner furnace?

These are some of my pictures. 

https://imgur.com/a/7u7jR2n

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you.

EBEBRATT-Ed

You need to have a relay and a transformer added. The small transformer in your oil burner primary control will not be able to power your Ecobee.

Mine is just a generic drawing for a Nest thermostat. Others like @EdTheHeaterMan may have something better but this will give you an idea of what you need to do. The transformer and relay are probably around $50 with shipping Supply House.com will ship to your door.

If you are reasonably handy with electrical you will have no issues.

HeatingN00b

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

You need to have a relay and a transformer added. The small transformer in your oil burner primary control will not be able to power your Ecobee. Mine is just a generic drawing for a Nest thermostat. Others like @EdTheHeaterMan may have something better but this will give you an idea of what you need to do. The transformer and relay are probably around $50 with shipping Supply House.com will ship to your door. If you are reasonably handy with electrical you will have no issues.

Wow, this is great information!!!!!

I have a basic understanding of electricity (hope this will let me install this as a weekend project 😅).

Few questions. 

1. On supplyhouse.com I see a "

Enclosed Pilot Relay, 10 Amp, SPDT w/ 10-30 Vac/DC/120 Vac Coil" will this work or are there different types of relays?

2. In terms of transformers, should there be a specific one I should buy? They range from $12 to $60. I know the boiler /furnace is on a 15amp breaker. Don't know if it's 24v.

3. Other than these two items, do you think I might need anything else to make it work?

Thank you once again for the great information.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The transformer should be 40va. get one that mounts on a 4" square electrical box. Feed the transformer with 120 volt. The transformer output is 24 volts.

I would use a Rib Relay like the diagram shows. #RIBU1C. The rib relay will mount on the same electrical box. You need 3 wire from that location to the thermostat.

Remove the thermostat wires from your boiler control. Connect the yellow and orange wire from the rib relay where the stat wires used to go on the boiler control.

Call an electrician or a boiler tech if you have any doubt about doing this.

HeatingN00b

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

The transformer should be 40va. get one that mounts on a 4" square electrical box. Feed the transformer with 120 volt. The transformer output is 24 volts. I would use a Rib Relay like the diagram shows. #RIBU1C. The rib relay will mount on the same electrical box. You need 3 wire from that location to the thermostat. Remove the thermostat wires from your boiler control. Connect the yellow and orange wire from the rib relay where the stat wires used to go on the boiler control. Call an electrician or a boiler tech if you have any doubt about doing this.

Thank you for the additional information. Should be a simple weekend project 🙂

When you say feed the transformer 120v, do you mean run a new line or can I use the furnace line that is already in place (120v 15amp)?

mattmia2

You would power it off the power for the boiler. You can get what is called a "fan center" that has the relay and transformer all on one plate to mount on a 4" box.

HeatingN00b

mattmia2 said:

You would power it off the power for the boiler. You can get what is called a "fan center" that has the relay and transformer all on one plate to mount on a 4" box.

Ok. So if I was to buy this one (or if there is a better one that you suggest.......
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-R8285A1048-40-VA-Fan-Center-w-SPDT-Switch-Includes-R8222B

What would the wire setup look like?
I would connect black and white in 120v.


What about the other wires?

Synbio

ecobee has official wiring diagram for this. I think this is easier, but I am not sure if it is what you want. Caveat emptor.

https://support.ecobee.com/s/articles/ecobee-thermostat-installation-with-an-isolation-relay

You need a 24 V transformer that plugs into mains and a fan relay. https://www.supplyhouse.com/White-Rodgers-90-380-Fan-Relay-Type-184-24-VAC-Coil-50-60-Hz-SPNO-SPNC-Coil-Data-77-Ohms-DC-Resistance-125-mA

HVACNUT

The new revision of the Beckett Genisys primary offers a C terminal so you wouldn't have to change anything except the primary. And upgrading from the existing Sid Harvey's remanufactured R8184G is a no brainer. Unless you know your wiring and burner, it should be done by a pro familiar with oil burners.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I would bet the rib and xformer and 4" box is less $$ than a fan center. + the rib has a light on it to tell you when the stat calls

EdTheHeaterMan

Just got back from AHR Show in Atlanta GA. Sorry for the late response. Here is a secret C wire that Honeywell showed us in the original wiring diagram when the R8184G was introduced sooo many years ago. . the F terminal to the far left of this picture is the C on the transformer inside the R8184G control and the T terminal to the far right of the picture is the R on the transformer inside the R8184G control.

So looking at this wire nut area here, remove the black wire from the wire nut with the 2 red wires. Use the Red wire for Rc on the Ecobee Premium. Use the green/blue wire nut wire to connect to the F on the 8184G and the C on the Ecobee Premium. Use the white wire for W on the Ecobee Premium.

Since the power draw from the Ecobee is relatively low, this should work for you.

EdTheHeaterMan

If you are uncomfortable with this, and you want to use the fan center idea, this is the lowest price fan center available. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Packard-FC90113-Fan-Control-Center-120-VAC-Primary-24-VAC-Secondary-SPDT-Relay

HeatingN00b

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Just got back from AHR Show in Atlanta GA. Sorry for the late response. Here is a secret C wire that Honeywell showed us in the original wiring diagram when the R8184G was introduced sooo many years ago. . the F terminal to the far left of this picture is the C on the transformer inside the R8184G control and the T terminal to the far right of the picture is the R on the transformer inside the R8184G control. So looking at this wire nut area here, remove the black wire from the wire nut with the 2 red wires. Use the Red wire for Rc on the Ecobee Premium. Use the green/blue wire nut wire to connect to the F on the 8184G and the C on the Ecobee Premium. Use the white wire for W on the Ecobee Premium. Since the power draw from the Ecobee is relatively low, this should work for you.

@EdTheHeaterMan

Thank you. If I was to just run a new thermostat wire from the burner to the ecobee how should I do it?

Just connect 

R to red

W to white

C to blue

What should I do with the Green wire and Yellow?

Also I would not need a different transformer?

Thank you once again. 

EdTheHeaterMan

Does this connect to Air Conditioning also? Or is Heat only?

If NO, then there is no Y or G needed on the thermostat.

If YES, then there is another way to wire it that does not require a transformer or relay. Just 4 wires to the AC and 2 wires to the oil burner.

HVACNUT

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Just got back from AHR Show in Atlanta GA. Sorry for the late response. Here is a secret C wire that Honeywell showed us in the original wiring diagram when the R8184G was introduced sooo many years ago. . the F terminal to the far left of this picture is the C on the transformer inside the R8184G control and the T terminal to the far right of the picture is the R on the transformer inside the R8184G control. So looking at this wire nut area here, remove the black wire from the wire nut with the 2 red wires. Use the Red wire for Rc on the Ecobee Premium. Use the green/blue wire nut wire to connect to the F on the 8184G and the C on the Ecobee Premium. Use the white wire for W on the Ecobee Premium. Since the power draw from the Ecobee is relatively low, this should work for you.

That seems a little "hack job" to me. 

And I don't know if I missed it, but the OP must have a steam boiler. If it was a "water" boiler, TT would be jumped. 

HeatingN00b

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Does this connect to Air Conditioning also? Or is Heat only? If NO, then there is no Y or G needed on the thermostat. If YES, then there is another way to wire it that does not require a transformer or relay. Just 4 wires to the AC and 2 wires to the oil burner.

@EdTheHeaterMan

Yes that is correct only heat no ac.

This is an old American Standard Arcoliner (steam boiler). Will rewire everything this weekend with the thermostat wire leaving out the Green and Yellow wires. Thank you.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I wouldn't want that little transformer in the R8184G to power anything else. Too risky but whatever.

I don't know why people are so resistant to a transformer & relay or a fan center (the cost is about the same).

It's a foolproof fix without any risk.

HeatingN00b

HVACNUT said:

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Just got back from AHR Show in Atlanta GA. Sorry for the late response. Here is a secret C wire that Honeywell showed us in the original wiring diagram when the R8184G was introduced sooo many years ago. . the F terminal to the far left of this picture is the C on the transformer inside the R8184G control and the T terminal to the far right of the picture is the R on the transformer inside the R8184G control. So looking at this wire nut area here, remove the black wire from the wire nut with the 2 red wires. Use the Red wire for Rc on the Ecobee Premium. Use the green/blue wire nut wire to connect to the F on the 8184G and the C on the Ecobee Premium. Use the white wire for W on the Ecobee Premium. Since the power draw from the Ecobee is relatively low, this should work for you.

That seems a little "hack job" to me. 

And I don't know if I missed it, but the OP must have a steam boiler. If it was a "water" boiler, TT would be jumped. 

@HVACNUT

That is correct it's a steam boiler. Does this mean the 3 wire connections suggested will not work with ecobee?

EdTheHeaterMan

HeatingN00b said:

Thank you. If I was to just run a new thermostat wire from the burner to the ecobee how should I do it?

Just connect
R to red
W to white
C to blue

What should I do with the Green wire and Yellow?

Also I would not need a different transformer?

Thank you once again.

That is correct. No transformer needed because you are using the transformer in the R8184G control. Yellow and Green are needed to operate the air condition compressor and the air conditioner's fan that blows the cool air thru the ductwork.

Do you have air conditioning? There was no picture or mention of air conditioning in your original query.

HeatingN00b

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Thank you. If I was to just run a new thermostat wire from the burner to the ecobee how should I do it? Just connect R to red W to white C to blue What should I do with the Green wire and Yellow? Also I would not need a different transformer? Thank you once again.

That is correct. No transformer needed because you are using the transformer in the R8184G control. Yellow and Green are needed to operate the air condition compressor and the air conditioner's fan that blows the cool air thru the ductwork. Do you have air conditioning? There was no picture or mention of air conditioning in your original query.

No air-conditioning at all. Just heat at the moment. 

Thank you. Will work on this over the weekend. 

EdTheHeaterMan

HVACNUT said:

That seems a little "hack job" to me. 

And I don't know if I missed it, but the OP must have a steam boiler. If it was a "water" boiler, TT would be jumped. 

The only reason I know this is because I saw an OEM use that "Hack Job" little transformer to power the 'fan timer" of the (now discontinued) Honeywell L4064 Fan Limit that was equipped with a heating element. If it was good enough for a heating element, why can't it be used for computer chip? I think computer chips use less electricity than electric heaters. @EBEBRATT-Ed, and @HVACNUT... you guys need to think outside the box sometimes.
Do you guys remember this old Fan Limit with the two extra wires?

HVACNUT

HeatingN00b 

@HVACNUT

That is correct it's a steam boiler. Does this mean the 3 wire connections suggested will not work with ecobee?

I don't know whether or not it'll work. It might, if Honeywell says it will. But with your particular Sid Harvey's remanufactured primary, using it wouldn't be my first choice, or second, or third. 
A fan center, or a transformer with a RIB relay is really the professional and more widely recognized way to go. Or even a one zone switching relay. Any of those setups can be reused if you decide to replace the boiler. If the boiler and burner will be there in the foreseeable future, then the least intrusive option is to replace the primary with the Beckett 7565 primary. It gives you the common you need, and is an upgrade in safety (15 vs 45 seconds) and can be set up for interrupted ignition vs intermittent (constant) ignition. 
I just found out about these and have no experience with this model. The Genisys 7505 that I'm familiar with has the option of adding an A/C ready kit which gives you a 40 va transformer and an isolation heat relay.

EdTheHeaterMan

Although, I am confident that your Sid Harvey rebuilt R8184G will be just fine as power for your Ecobee, Here is the diagram for how to use the Isolation relay using the Packard FC90113 fan center relay. Just in case the NaySayers have you convinced that your obsolete control will fail.

The brown wire will not be used on the relay and needs to have a cap placed on it. If you were going to purchase a new control, I would pick the Carlin 70200 over the Beckett Genisys control
In which case you would need the relay and transformer because Carlin does not publish what terminal is R or C on that control.

HeatingN00b

Thank you all for the great noob (newbie) friendly suggestions and diagrams. I have options and a better understanding.

@HVACNUT

Thank you for the suggestions. Definitely understand the benefits of having a system that can be reused if the boiler gets (or when it gets replaced). Once this boiler kicks we are leaning to heatpump heating and cooling. I think it should have the wires needed to run the ecobee right?

Also when you mention "interrupted ignition vs intermittent (constant) ignition " with the Beckett 7565 primary. What are the differences and benefits of this (sorry if I sound like a biger real newbie but this is all new to me). If I would go this route it's a simple swap? Any suggestions on how to install it?

Thank you for all your knowledge and suggestions. 

@EdTheHeaterMan

Thank you for all the help, and the two options. I will definitely try the first option you suggested and run the ecobee in the basement to see if it work / startup. If it does I will remove the old system and install it. If it does not then I will run your second option (or the Beckett 7565 primary).

Overall thank you all for the great help. Will keep everyone posted.

HVACNUT

@HeatingN00b, if you opt for the Genisys, I would recommend your oil service provider install, set up, and test it. The primary and burner that is, not the ecobee.

HeatingN00b

HVACNUT said:

@HeatingN00b, if you opt for the Genisys, I would recommend your oil service provider install, set up, and test it. The primary and burner that is, not the ecobee.

@HVACNUT

So the Genisys is not something I can just install it and set it up?

Also is there a way to know if it's compatible with my system?

HVACNUT

The Genisys is definitely compatible with your burner, but it should be installed and set up by a pro.
You have an oil fired steam boiler. Are you saying you don't have anyone to service it annually? If you don't, get someone. If you do, call them.

HeatingN00b

@HVACNUT said:

The Genisys is definitely compatible with your burner, but it should be installed and set up by a pro.

You have an oil fired steam boiler. Are you saying you don't have anyone to service it annually? If you don't, get someone. If you do, call them.

Yeah we signed up for a contract. When they come and give us the walkthrough of the boiler I will ask about this.

Thank you for all your help. 

HeatingN00b

@EdTheHeaterMan

The weekend was a success. Got everything working with a new wire using your guide. I did order the fan center and will install it later at asome point just incase I will need to replace the boiler. Thank you once again. 

@HVACNUT

Thank you for your suggestion. I got it working with Edtheheaterman suggestion. I did order the fan center. For future proofing my work.

I also spoke to my furnace company and I explained the situation, and the suggestion you made about the interrupted ignition vs intermittent they stated that they are familiar with both part that was suggested here and stated that they will install it when they come to service the furnace.

Thank you again for everyone's suggestion. 

Now onto my other problem...... the air steam valves not working 😕