Steam Going to Top Floor Apt. vs Lower Floor

fshea31

Hello, I recently moved from a 3rd floor apartment to the one right above it, which is the top floor. I didn't have many issues with the steam radiator heating until now. There's a lot of water hammering in the bedroom beneath the floor right by the wall, so I assume the issue is with the vertical pipe (the plumber already fixed the horizontal pipe pitch). My question is, can the hammering be happening against the elbow fitting that's closing off that pipe?

Each of the vents in this apartment are pretty loud (fyi: they seem to be Maid-O'-Mists as opposed to the Varivalves in the 3rd floor unit, which were perfectly silent for 6+ years) with either boiling or hissing sounds, so maybe the boiler pressure is too high? But if that is the reason, wouldn't the pressure have to be so finely tuned to ever avoid it?

On the other hand, maybe this isn't actually water hammering but pipe expansion causing banging. When the heat comes on, the noise sounds like hammering, but it eventually fades out into what definitely sounds like a pipe expansion issue (I had a problem on the 3rd floor that turned out to be a random nail jutting out from a piece of wood and making contact with a pipe when the heat would come on). Can pipe expansion noises and water hammering sound the same?

Also, one last question: the living room radiator has loud hammering that is completely confined to the intake valve, and the Maid-O'-Mist vent that was put on about six weeks ago had red water pour out from it when the super took it off to check it a couple days ago. Would replacing the valve (which looks to be in pretty bad shape) be the next logical step (the plumber determined the pitch pipe is fine)?

P.S. I've been posting videos to YouTube to share with management, but the sound is so low that I don't think they show just how aggravating the situation is.

Thanks for your help. This is a really great site for sleepless tenants like me.

EdTheHeaterMan

That noise in the video you just posted above is not real loud.
Although there are steam boilers that operate with no water hammer at all, your noise is relatively mild compared to what I have heard in other steam boilers. You may not get management to act on it until you start making a paper trail that might cost them money if you get lawyers involved. Management does not like lawyer involvement. They try to stay away from that.


Here is a recent post that may help. https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1734639#Comment_1734639
It has nothing to do with the original query, it is just that the original poster sent a certified letter and got an immediate response from Management. So may your request for help should include "after requesting this be resolved X-number of times with no resolution in site. I wanted to bring this to the attention of the management. I am wondering what you might be planning on doing to stop this noise problem?” Send that in a certified letter to start the paper trail. See if the management gets someone there to see what can be done.

fshea31

It's not exactly an issue of management trying to avoid doing anything. I just don't think they know what to do, as the plumber's only solution seemed to be making sure the pipes are properly pitched. So I wanted to get a little bit of feedback before making suggestions to them that will cost them or myself money.

As for the volume of the hammering, I don't think my camera phone captures it well enough. Besides, what's an unacceptable level of volume? As far as I'm concerned, if it keeps me up a lot of the night, it should be addressed, especially when the unit right below me was fine.

reggi

Just curious... being you lived in silence directly under your present apartment the first question that comes to mind is did you hear any of these noises from your old vantage point below or is your present apartment the only one of ? ( How Many) that is not working so smoothly as before? 

And the last tenant....did they live there a long time and never complained about the noises? You probably inherited what they got used to or didn't bother with..

fshea31

I don't recall hearing anything from below. But a couple weeks after I moved in to 4, the plumber did re-pitch the pipe, so these noises are somewhat different from before. Apparently the previous tenant didn't have any complaints, and apparently around the time I moved the current tenant next to me complained about not having enough heat. So maybe they just increased the boiler pressure, which has caused issues for me.

But after this weekend when there was no chance for sleep after the system kicked in at 5:45, I think it's pipe expansion causing banging against the floor, and the plumber didn't consider it when he worked on that pipe.

If the boiler were to run for ten minutes in an hour, is it possible for the pipe to keep banging (sounding like a thud about every 15 seconds) for the whole rest of the hour until the boiler starts up again?

reggi

How did he "repitch" the pipes as they run under your floor and above the ceiling below? If he was able to move them up or down it's quite likely without a visual, that the pipe laid up against a framing member where it rubs now as the pipe expands and contracts ( if I'm following your description correctly )
Now correcting the RADIATORS pitch is another story... and with the Red Rusty water that came out along with a obstruction in the inlet valve I'd guess that was repitched and if the valve is bad.   ..yes it should be replaced or repaired. 
Can the steam run for 10 minutes but knock in your pipes for 50 minutes after it's off ?
Possibly but not likely... How cold is it where you're at? What kinda building and insulation? Maybe the building is expanding and contracting and being the piping and boiler is secured to the basement floor they're giving some resistance which is transmitted as banging. .   

fshea31

The plumber repitched both. He went through the 3rd floor ceiling since they were already doing renovations, so he could see what he was doing with the pipe. I can't imagine he wouldn't address any potential rubbing spots, but maybe he did.

This is an old brick building, and I don't know what kind of insulation, but today I discovered that if I step on a spot on my floor that's about six feet from the living room radiator, I can get it to hammer. That spot happens to be right above where the 3rd floor ceiling had been starting to crack when I lived there. They repaired it (I saw that there are now two new bulkheads in the ceiling) and I assume there's a pipe there, so maybe something got thrown off.

I'll have to speak with management further.

EdTheHeaterMan

The "Thud" about every 15 seconds after the steam turns off, sounds like it is pipe expansion is now contracting on cool down. It might be bang bang bang during expansion in rapid succession, then during the cool down, the contracting pipe cools off much slower as the condensation is still very hot in the pipe as it travels back to the boiler. Then the pipe slowly cools down over time.

Finding the hammer noise by stepping on an exact point on the floor, should make for easy location of the source. Cell phones work great for talking to the tech or maintenance person that is tasked with fixing the problem while you step and they look.

Good luck with getting this resolved. But Document Everything. Phone calls, in person discussions and every time that someone works on the problem. Write it down, date and time Get an email address for management and just follow up with them every so often with cordial recap of what was said and has been done. All those records may come in handy in the future. You may not need them ever again after the problem is resolved. If the problem goes on for years… You will want compensation for your inconvenience. Without a paper trail, you may just get the "He said, She said" run around.

Judge Judy will not listen to "Hearsay" as evidence!

Just sayin'

fshea31

Those are good tips, Ed.

I just opened up a small piece of the floor (it was already cut open and screwed back down). I couldn't see much, except that the pipe is running parallel with the floor joists. Except it isn't right in the middle of two joists. It's pressed up against one of them, so there's at least a foot of pipe in contact with wood. I think this is a definite cause of noise.

reggi

Well if there wasn't a box of cash or jewels under that floorboard most likely the Super pulled it up to get a look at that pipe and maybe to see if the joists were sagging a bit too before tearing into the ceiling of your old place.. Those bulkheads have access panels I hope.. Good Detective work..