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Honeywell R8184G4009 primary control problem

Harley_Dave
Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10
edited January 24 in Oil Heating
Is my Honeywell R8184G4009 primary control bad? The wife ask me why there was cold air coming out of the registers vents. I went down to check on my boiler and sure enough the water temp was down to 70°. Primary was tripped. I hit the reset button and all it did was make a humming sound. I tried several times to get it to reset with no luck. I figured the primary control was bad and I have one coming tomorrow as no one local stocks them. I turned everything off for the night.

I had read some other posts where someone said to make sure the blower motor isn't locked up so I went and checked and my blower spins fine. After a few hours of doint some research I decided I'd try one more time and see if it would fire up. I turned on the power and sure enough it fired up, water temp ran up to the high limit set temp of 180° and shut off. I thought all was fine. Made a call for heat and the water temp dropped until the boiler called for fire. The primary started humming again and wouldn't fire up.

Here is a link to a short video of the primary humming.
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgmczaEKiUHCpHsp3Z-hVwOLPHaG?e=YjyzHT

Thanks,
Dave

Comments

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,858
    The blower motor might be OK but it seems the burner motor isn't turning. The buzz is the igniter, and the motor is connected to the same lead so it's getting power. It's either a bad burner motor or a seized pump. Is it DIY? I don't know you well enough to answer that. If it's the motor, maybe. If it's the fuel pump then probably not. One thing is for sure, it's not the primary. If you ordered a modern primary with a 15 second safety and interrupted ignition, then great. If it's a direct replacement for what's there, send it back.
    Harley_DaveSuperTech
  • Harley_Dave
    Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10
    edited January 24
    I misspoke when I said blower motor turns free, I meant the burner motor spins free. This is a Clean Burn CB90HS burner on a boiler and my hot water goes into the house to my air handler. My oil pumps has it's own motor separate from the burner and that runs fine. I ordered a ICM Controls ICM1501 replacement. My son has a new Honeywell R7284U-1004 he is going to bring me on his next trip here. I need to go down and check all my connections and make sure it is getting the correct voltage. BTW this is a DIY.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,925
    edited January 24
    I have worked on Clean Burn furnaces and boilers. They burn waste oil. There is a pump at the fuel tank and there is a blower motor on the burner. I can't remember if this is the model that has a small air compressor on the opening that fuel pump usually goes on standard #2 oil burners.

    @HVACNUT is correct about the buzz, sound. That is the ignition spark. The burner motor is called a blower motor in the manual if I recall. that motor has a dead spot. If the motor ever stops on that dead spot, the motor will not start. spin the motor off the dead spot and the motor will work fine.

    You do not need a primary control .... you need a burner motor.
    Edward Young Retired HVAC Contractor & HYDRONICIAN Services first oil burner at age 16 P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,925
    edited January 24
    found your manual online. Are you a truck or auto mechanic? Where do you get your waste oil?

    The reason I ask is there are a lot of DIY bozos that are playing with things they have no business touching. When it comes to waste oil heaters, there are professionals that have no business working on this equipment. You may be the best person equipped to work on your boiler because there are very few qualified technicians that work on this stuff.
    Edward Young Retired HVAC Contractor & HYDRONICIAN Services first oil burner at age 16 P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
    Harley_Dave
  • Harley_Dave
    Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10
    Ed,

    What you are saying about a dead spot on the motor kinda makes sense. When I went down last night to check if the motor was locked up I did sping it and then tried the restart and it fired up. I do have another motor that will fit this unit but it is only 1725rpm and the one I'm running right now is 3450rpm. I do run a stand alone compressor and fuel pump.

    I've had oil furnaces for over 40 years and I consider myself pretty handy and making those run as far as changing oil pumps etc but never had a motor go bad, knock on wood. This is a waste oil boiler I picked up last year as I just switched over this year from a coal boiler.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,925
    There is a lot of maintenance needed on that burner. The fuel needs to be heated before it is burned. the compressor is uses to put about 30 PSI air pressure thru the nozzle and the final air adjustment is completed with the air supplied by the burner fan.

    After some operating time, you will find a solid buildup of "tar like" oil deposits that will stop oil flow thru the heater portion of the oil delivery system. You will want to purchase a spare nozzle for the burner and have it on standby for a no heat situation. It will take several hours if soaking, brushing, and air pressure to clean that tar from the heater and the nozzle.
    Edward Young Retired HVAC Contractor & HYDRONICIAN Services first oil burner at age 16 P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
    Harley_Dave
  • Harley_Dave
    Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10
    I have oil and air preheaters on this burner. I do keep a spare nozzle on hand as well. I do realize there is some maitanence with running one of these units that need to be addressed from time to time and I'm fine with that. It's far better then maintaining a stoker coal boiler every day.

    You mentioned a dead spot on the motor. Is there a way to clean that dead spot up? This motor is a Beckett 21341U (Emerson Model #S55GYLDM-6017). I've been trying to locate a cross reference for this motor in case I can find one cheaper. Electric motors are getting really expensive like everything else.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,925
    This Red section of the diagram is where all the oil turns into tar. That will need to be disassembled and cleaned regularly. Just remember, that the cost of free fuel is offset by the amount of service required. No free lunches!
    I don't know where you are getting your used oil from, but there are those that charge big bucks to get rid of that stuff for mechanical repair facilities. Just stay away from Transmission repair shops. Your tank should contain no more that 10% Automatic Transmission Fluid.
    Edward Young Retired HVAC Contractor & HYDRONICIAN Services first oil burner at age 16 P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
    Harley_Dave
  • Harley_Dave
    Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10
    We cleaned the heater block out prior to our installation. I do have a very good source for clean used oil and he only charges me a $1.00 a gallon delivered and it burns really good. Heating oil was up to over $5.50 a gallon here a few months back. I don't mind the maintanece as it sure beats burning coal which that price has sky rocketed as well, I believe to around $450 a ton.
  • Harley_Dave
    Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10
    I changed motors and the primary control is still humming. I bench tested both motors a dozen times each and they both start and stop fine. I have power going into the relay (black wire) but no power coming out of the relay on the orange wire to the burner. I even put a new cad cell and harness on. Tested the transformer and it has plenty of spark. Any ideas?
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,925
    edited January 25
    Bench test the primary control this way

    STEP 1. Connect 115 VAC to Black and White wire. Connect T to T on the low voltage side of the control. Be sure nothing is connected to F F on the low voltage side of the control. If the control does not click and provide power to the orange wire then press the reset button. If the control does not click and provide power to the orange wire, then the control is defective

    EDIT:
    STEP 2. If control provides 115 VAC to the orange wire then allow the control to stay like that for 45 seconds to see if the safety lockout is working automatically. If the reset fails to disconnect the power to the orange wire within 45 seconds, then control is defective and unsafe to use.

    STEP 3. If the orange wire gets power in step 1 and the safety reset removes power from the orange wire in step 2 then the control is operating properly and has only one more test to pass.

    STEP 4. operate the control with a 1000 ohm resistor connected across the F F terminals to see if the orange wire continues to have power for longer that 45 seconds. or until the call for heat is satisfied by removing the jumper from the T T terminals. (or, If located on the operating burner then operate the burner and see if the eye connected to F F detects light from the flame)
    Edward Young Retired HVAC Contractor & HYDRONICIAN Services first oil burner at age 16 P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
    Harley_Dave
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,925
    edited January 25
    If you have a defective control you will want to purchase the Carlin Pro 70020 primary control for less money because it has diagnostic features that you will like. The wiring is a little different but you can easily adapt it to your system.

    EDIT Your son's Honeywell R7284 is good too.
    Edward Young Retired HVAC Contractor & HYDRONICIAN Services first oil burner at age 16 P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,858
    edited January 25
    If both the igniter and motor are connected to the Orange lead on the primary, and there's no 120v on Orange, then what was buzzing in the video?

    I just listened again, and it sounds like the relay itself chattering like a banshee. 
    Harley_Dave
  • BDR529
    BDR529 Member Posts: 260
    The clapper vibrating inside the control-.
  • Harley_Dave
    Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10
    EdTheHeaterMan, Thanks for the directions on how to bench test the relay. You said you have worked on Clean Burn units so I am sure you know they can be a wiring nightmare inside the control box and not much room to work inside there. I plan to go down and do some testing as soon as I get some coffee, it's only 62° in the house right now. A friend is suppose to bring me a used Primary that he believes is good just in case that is the problem. I appreciate the info on the Carlin Pro 70020, that is a very good price.

    HVACNUT, My guess is whatever contacts are on this relay sound like it's not getting good contact but that is just my guess. As Ed knows these waste oil burners can be a wiring nightmare inside the burner control box. You have the Block heater power, Oil Heater Thermostat, Oil pump. Oil solenoid, Air solenoid, Transformer, Air prover switch, Blower motor, Oil heater, Air heater, Primary Control and Green power light. Hopefully I" can figure something out today.
  • Harley_Dave
    Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10

  • Harley_Dave
    Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10
    Ed,

    I removed the wires on the F&F terminals and put a jumper on the T&T terminals and ran through the steps you provided.

    Step 1. I did get power to the orange wire.

    Step 2. I ran this test multiple times and it would lockout most times within 13 seconds. A few times it went to 29 seconds before lockout.

    Step 3. It did remove power to the orange wire when it went into lockout.

    Step 4. When I put the 1000 ohm resistor on the F&F terminals I got no power at all to the orange wire.
  • Harley_Dave
    Harley_Dave Member Posts: 10
    Primary Control Update:
    It turned out that my primary control was bad. My neighbor had a used Honeywell R7284 he gave me. I got it installed and setup and the burner fired up. The only thing I had to do was change the tiime on the Anti Short-Cycle Timeout on my Honeywell L7224U Aquastat. It was set at 0 so I changed it to 15 seconds. It is nice to have heat again. I want to thank you all for your input.

    Thanks,
    Dave