Do you prefer educated customers?

Jason_13

I like the ones that did and understand their research. A more educated customer makes us better techs.

JUGHNE

ChrisJ, what is inside of the batteries you have in your vehicles?

Mad Dog_2

Never mind.   Bad joke. Mad Dog 

ChrisJ

I use leaded solder all the time in electronics.


Mad, check your messages

Mad Dog_2

Yeah.  I would not recommend it  😕 Mad Dog. 

Mad Dog_2

Thinking about it, there has only been one or two people out of thousands I've interacted with that were difficult know it alls after Reading Dan's books. Usually, they/you are preaching to the choir and you are both already on the same "page" literally and figuratively.  As I've said many times before, Dan is The "Jimmy Page" of his industry. Universally Revered, respected,trusted and loved!   I can't think of ANY other industry that has had a better educator of the rank and file, meat and potatoes plumbers and boiler guys than Dan.  His devotees and followers are a cheerful Legion who are on the same path of knowledge,  working toward the same goal...properly working heating systems.  Mad Dog 🐕 

vhauk

I believe every customer is different. While doing plant maintenance in a large building we had an older lady in the offices up front that complained several times every day about the temperature at her desk. The day shift guys couldn’t ignore her because she had too much influence with the higher ups. The day shift guys kept asking me to come up with something that would get her off their backs. The building was a hodgepodge of digital and pneumatic controls, with all the tstats being pneumatic. One night I installed a pneumatic tstat on the wall next to her desk. No lock cover. It wasn’t tied into anything at all. I left a note that she could adjust “her” tstat as needed for “her” comfort. We never had any more complaints from her. Some customers are impossible to please without creative thinking 

reggi

@DanHolohan scratching his head...

DanHolohan said:

Over the years, I've had many homeowners read my books and then write to tell me they knew more about their system that the contractors that came to their house. This was particularly true when it came to steam heating.

That has me thinking about educated- versus not-educated customers. Which is the better customer?

I wouldn't want a uneducated contractor that wasn't familiar with Dan Holohan's works looking at my system.... That would make me a SMART customer and you wouldn't even mind me while you're working... 😉

Mad Dog_2

In all my years of installing and consulting, I've had only 2 clients go toe to toe with me until they "gassed out" , punching themselves out, exhausted but intellectually satisfied.  Both super-intelligent, highly educated folks.  The First was a Wall Street Hedge fund genius who lived in a Huge Hudson Valley Mansion overlooking the River.  He had an old Two pipe vapor stytem that I did alot to bring it back. He had a  photographic memory and recall and could recite chapter and verse of The Lost Art. We restored the system 110%, we could do no better!   He wanted to keep tweaking and I lovingly broke it to him; "Glenn, its time you get a new hobby...this job is long over! "  We both laughed and he was relieved and knew I was right.. He hS since moved on to several other mansions but keeps in touch and picks my brain 🧠 on his latest "hobbies."   Great guy.  

Number two:  upper East side brownstone,  Harvard Undergrad, Georgetown Medical School, PHD, 65 year old female.  My wife Barbara was my "assistant" that day taking notes because I promised her a great lunch at one of thos nice upper East Side brunch places when we were done.  It was also freezing 🥶 out in car.  I alloted extra time for this lady because I knew I had come to get in the Ring with Ali. She too, knew the Lost Art verbatim and fully understood all the physics and science AND the mysterious quirks of two pipe steam.  She challenged EVERY WORD I uttered but quickly tired when I answered everything to her satisfaction, blocked her best shots and gave her the rope-a-dope.  I figured this could go on for hours and You know how  I love a good debate and keep on comin...The whole consult was 45 minutes .I knew it was over when she mentioned that She had a brunch date with her friends and was really hungry. The Lioness was pleased with her performance and felt very Comfortable with her knowledge of her system and the consult WAS worth it.  

When we walked to our brunch place a few blocks away,, Barbara, a SUPER-HARD critic who is not big on compliments, praise or adulation, was extremely impressed with my knowledge, performance and how I "handled her" prosecutorial, expert witness-assault.  "Man!!! I couldn't believe how smart she was and kept coming at you from different angles. I got nervous a few times when I thought she might have "had" you....  She WAS rough!! But she really knew her stuff!!   You did good today, Matty, real good!"    I was walking on air at that point.  Mad Dog. 

Mad Dog_2

That reminds me of what my Life Coach and Dutch Uncle, Mr Holohan once said to a young, newly minted Mad Dog who had just went into his own Boiler Installation business.  Over a few drinks, at Our Favorite pub on Long 🏝 Island, the young contractor enthusiastically told the wise-beyond-his-years Mentor: "Dan, I'm going to CRUSH my competition!!!!!  They'll be no one left standing!!!"  Dan took a sip of his cocktail and dead-panned like Chance the Gardener (Peter Sellers)  in the mid 70s sleeper "Being There"  : "COMPETITION IS GOOD!!!!"
He didn't have to explain.  What he meant was that competition and sparring and getting in the ring and the trenches is how YOU became the best you could be.  Not in your Ivory Tower, but in "combat" is how you made your bones and your reputation.   

The best and most accomplished folks in their respective fields are seasoned and "ring saavy."  They are not afraid of looking stupid by asking any Questions. They are not "threatened" by other educated or knowledgeable folks....they welcome and thrive on the crucible of the debate.. So, yes, give me an educated client everytime.  They see the forest for the 🌳 Trees!   Mad Dog


 

Mad Dog_2

Oh one last thing before I head in to the Big City....The Consults in large apartment buildings with Co-op and condo boards are the best:   the morning starts with 12-20 building occupants with you in the boiler room.  There's one or two really sharp people who know EXACTLY  what to focus on. They too, have read Pumping Away and P/S Made Easy,  Lost Art, We got Steam Heat and have a stack of Dan's books.  The initial barrage of questions last about 15 minutes.  Two people peel off..."OK seems like you'll have a handle on everything...I've got a place to be....nice meeting you, Matt...,"  Now we start to walk the building 😀.   One by one they quietly slip away until there are only one or  two left.  The Real knowledgeable ones.  I've never rushed a consult and pride myself on being the last man standing.  The client always gets their moneys 💰 worth.  I've been asked..."Matt?.How long 
IS the consultation???"  "I stay until EVERYONE'S questions are answered and you're all satisfied with your understanding of your system and its problems.  "  Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

So glad I found this trade and fell in with the best  Wolf Pack around.  Looking forward to the coming years where knowledge and experience only get deeper. Dan was right about that too.  When I turned 40, I was frustrated that I wasn't a mulit-millionare yet!   He 'splained:  "In your 20s and 30s
You're learning your trade.  At 40, you know what your REALLY good at and start to make good money. At 50 and 60 you'll  be making top dollar if you're
Worth your salt.  He was right -as usual.   Mad Dog

DanHolohan

Thanks, Matt. 

Skyline

DanHolohan said:

So much better without customers. 😂

The reverse is just as true... So much better without contractors.

As a home owner, also contractor in IT business, I get 3 - 4 contract proposal depending on the contract amount. I let the contractors talk, ask just couple of questions and put the proposal, my impression of the contractor into a spreadsheet. The picking order is based on the impression/knowledge level of the contractor and the quote. If everything is pretty much equal between two or more contractors, that pretty much never the case, I may take the lower cost between the two. Unless my wife, who's also involved in the selection process, prefers other contractor.

Boiler replacement does not take place frequently, mine had been 20 years apart, it's hard to choose contractors. My previous contractor was no longer in business and as such, I was looking for new contractors. Out of the four contractors, three of them were quoting condensing boilers all different brands, while the fourth quoted a non-condensing boiler. While I liked the non-condensing solution, since it seemed like a better solution for my circumstances, ultimately, I did not select him. He wasn't pleasant to discuss his solution, kind of arrogant and his quote wasn't much less than the condensing boiler.

The plumbing/heating contractors are the hardest to deal with in my recent experience, includes collecting quotes for my daughter last year. They seem to be tied to a brand with current factory rebate and stand strongly behind the brand, while other brands are not talked about kindly. Most of them look at the BTU output of the current boiler and offer the same, or higher BTU in their quote. That's without any evaluation of the actual environment.

Oh well, at least I get a break from them, or they get a break from me for next 10 -15 years....

tim smith

I love educated customers, they up my game.

Mad Dog_2

You know what is is Skyline?  Its a rat 🐀 race out there and the public can beat you down.  You try to have a niche or a favorite brand to differentiate yourself and because you NEED  a relationship with your supplier and manufacturer.  You install their products, they back you up with support.
When you're in the rat race doing free estimates (which most of the public feel ENTITLED to) every night, you can't do a heatloss on every job...Thats why I always tried to establish myself as a Top notch installer because it enabled me to build a following.  Where people sought ME out.  This weeded out the lookie-loos and tire kickers who waste your precious time.  If I felt I was just being used as a Free Design and estimating service, I would charge a design fee to size equipment that would be deducted from the job if we did it.  If the folks called up and were recommended by someone, I'd rarely have to charge that fee.  They were pre-qaulified and were thrilled to have me quote the work, I felt the respect and got the job 98% of the time.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Dave Carpentier

I had a pal that would always get three quotes and pick the middle one (unless something very particular stood out).
I tend to go with the first person I call, unless something really seems wrong ("red flags").

Mad Dog_2

My brothers formula is the first guy who shows up gets the job. He's the most hungry...pretty true.  Some guys fe OBLIGATED to give fee estimates and just go thru the motions. Mad Dog

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

My brothers formula is the first guy who shows up gets the job. He's the most hungry...pretty true.  Some guys fe OBLIGATED to give fee estimates and just go thru the motions. Mad Dog

Maybe the first one to show up just has nothing better to do.

Skyline

Mad Dog_2 said:

You know what is is Skyline?  Its a rat 🐀 race out there and the public can beat you down.  You try to have a niche or a favorite brand to differentiate yourself and because you NEED  a relationship with your supplier and manufacturer.  You install their products, they back you up with support.
When you're in the rat race doing free estimates (which most of the public feel ENTITLED to) every night, you can't do a heatloss on every job...Thats why I always tried to establish myself as a Top notch installer because it enabled me to build a following.  Where people sought ME out.  This weeded out the lookie-loos and tire kickers who waste your precious time.  If I felt I was just being used as a Free Design and estimating service, I would charge a design fee to size equipment that would be deducted from the job if we did it.  If the folks called up and were recommended by someone, I'd rarely have to charge that fee.  They were pre-qaulified and were thrilled to have me quote the work, I felt the respect and got the job 98% of the time.  Mad Dog 🐕 

You know what it is Mad Dog_2? The general public can and will beat you down, that's the nature of owning a business, regardless how good you are. The same public should also ask for multiple quotes from different entities, especially in the case of replacing a boiler that cost them close to/over five digits in front of the decimal point. If you don't go along with this, I am happy for you. But to beat down on the general public for a process that has been in place for long time, that's uncalled for. Even if you're really good, which you are.

The general public, like myself, are not dealing with contractors like yourself most, if not all the times. I call those contractors "drive-by quoters"; they show up, check the boiler labels to get the BTU rating, look around what piping and other changes required, may answer some questions and send a quote via email. 75% of the contractors in my area had been like that both times.

I can understand the contractors' need for building out relation with suppliers and manufacturers, but... When one of the contractor three years ego swore by Navien and now does the same by ICB boilers, I question his current commitment to that boiler. Especially, when he was quoting 200K BTU boiler vs. my old of 120K BTU in a 1,300 sqft house.

Yes, you are great and so are other dozen or so on this forum who provided feedback to my question that very much appreciated. I would've hired any of you if you'd be doing business in my area without looking for additional quotes, but unfortunately that had not been the case. As such, like the general public, I try to filter out "drive-by quoters"...

Mad Dog_2

I hears ya...loud and clear.  Don"t forget I can't do everything well and I am a Consumer that must hire contractors for major renovations and things from time to time.  Its VERY hard to always pick the right contractors and I have had a few loo loos
That I had to fire 🔥 midway through a job.  I'm extremely nice to work for and have had people mistake kindness for weakness....until they go too far..  I'm not a hypocrit and have no problem paying a trip charge or design fee.  I agree, that Homeowners have it VERY tough.  There are A TON of shysters and unscrupulous predator-contractors out there.  I see that ALL the  time in the consulting gig. You hear the horror stories - first hand. 
Its not the guys who failed to do good mechanical work, it is the deceptive ones who don't return calls, walk away and shrug their shoulders after taking your $$$$.  There is ZERO shame in refunding someone's money if you're in over your head or just can't figure it out.  Be honest, try to learn and move ahead!  Thats The Honorable thing to do.  Mad Dog. 

kenjohnson

Another (one of the few) homeowners here and a degreed electrical engineer (I don't actively design).

I understand the comments from those in the trades about engineers who seem to know it all but can't really do anything right. They do exist, and unfortunately, they probably fail into roles that put put them into contact more often with more tradespeople than "good" engineers, who sound a lot like the ones some posters have enjoyed working with, and who I routinely work with to design and bring to market very complex products. Good engineers exist, and they are in the majority, or else you wouldn't have working computers, mobile phones, televisions, pumps, hvac systems, etc. And please don't universally blame them for reliability issues - more likely cost considerations are imposed on them that cheapen the product.

My father's father was a carpenter, my father was a civil engineer who had a successful career in project management at a very large construction company, and we built many a house together. The rants I heard from my dad about architects sound pretty much the same that I hear from tradespeople about some engineers. I've heard architects complain about civil engineers as well. There is usually some truth from both sides - I won't try to tell anyone where the line is drawn.

I've enjoyed working with people on this site, most of whom have provided very valuable advice to me when I was designing a radiant heating system (which works very well, thanks to the guidance and feedback received here). In designing that system, there were plenty of contractors and tradespeople who just said "that won't work", "you are going to need a lot more than blank", etc. etc. - opinions but not useful advice. It is mostly the reason I designed it myself and installed it myself.

When I work with tradespeople, I seek their advice and opinions, and I ask them a few questions that I know the answers to. If the answers don't line up, I move on to the next contractor, or (more often), they move on from me. I rarely "seek bids" - I find someone who does the work right, keeps up-to-date, and doesn't cut corners. Then, they just get my business and I trust them to charge me a fair price (they always do). I don't profess to know it all, but I expect them to know as much as I have learned prior to undertaking the project.

lager

I have a small book "101 Things I Learned in Engineering School" by Matthew Frederick & John Kuprenas

That is informative

ayetchvacker

I’ll take an educated customer that’s open minded and ready to learn. Many have a desire to know more about their home and their system and I love teaching them! Some only think they know and I usually let them think what they want. Some are just glad that I know haha! 

If I get a customer that has done some good research and has a good grasp of what’s going on and is asking the right questions I’ll stop them and just say thanks for taking an interest in it. It’s always a good thing to learn more about how your house works!

Mad Dog_2

Its nice preaching to the (educated)  choir.  It makes the sale much easier.  Mad Dog