Tiger loop

drtbys

So my understanding of tigerloops is that if you have any bubbles in the bulb thats bad?? means there is an air leak somewhere??

SuperTech

No, that's an indication that it's functioning properly. 

Dave Carpentier

Afaik, the top part should be about quarter or half full of oil. Its normal to have air visible in it.
Or, are you saying you're getting bubbles/foam visible ?

drtbys

yes there is bubbles when its pulling fuel, also should it stay about half full even when the boiler is not running?

drtbys

so here's my issue, my boiler will run for like 15 20 or so cycles turning on and turning off and be just fine and then all of a sudden it won't light I'll reset it and then it'll run again for another 20 30 cycles and then won't light.  I have a buried fuel tank with a two copper lines coming from under the ground up through the corner of my basement into my garage.  one of those lines was abandoned before i bought the house in 2012.  the other copper line switches to a braided line to my fuel filter and a braided line from the fuel filter to the tiger loop, and then two braided lines from the tiger loop to the fuel pump.  I had a technician here twice we checked fuel pressure. We check the fuel nozzle. We check the igniter. All of that is good. We checked the cad cell so that was good.

MaxMercy

I like to check the resistance the cad cell is reporting during combustion. To do this, you have to open the cad cell circuit after ignition and add a physical resistor to keep it running while measuring the resistance.

If you're reading over 1200 ohms or so and the cad cell is known to be good, you have a flame issue or light blockage.

I would consider replacing your primary with a Carlin 70200U control.

https://carlincombustion.com/wp-content/uploads/Model-70200-Sell-Sheet-web-041220.pdf

This will give you some information about what's going on when the unit locks out and will tell you things like CAD cell resistance while it's running without having to do any wiring changes.

EdTheHeaterMan

Bubbles in the tiger loop? Are the bubbles there for the first few seconds of the fuel pump operation... OR... are the bubbles or foam there the entire time the fuel pump is operating?

Small leak = some air gets into the fuel line between the tiger loop and the tank. Once that air is purged, the foam is gone and the tiger loop operates with a clear reservoir of oil the rest of the burner cycle.

Large leak = constant air from the leak is visible the entire time the fuel pump is operating because there is so much air that the deaerator vent can not keep up with the large quantity of the leak. always foam in the reservoir whenever the pump operates. Foam is gone after pump stops operating and the oil has a chance to settle and the air rises to the top of the oil

It sounds like you have the second scenario. This indicates that it is time to get a shovel and dig up the oil line to the top of the tank then replace the fuel line.

drtbys

so I have a genesis 7505 primary control but attached to that I have a contractor diagnostic digital display tool and it does tell me the ohms.  

when its running the ohms are 100
in standby mode the ohms are >50 

drtbys

I do have a Honeywell R7284 oil primary control I could put on if you thought that would give me more information

EdTheHeaterMan

The most information is from the Carlin 70200. but you probably dont need to purchase another primary to resolve this problem. Check the gaskets on the fuel filter, Check the flare connections from the tank fuel line to the pump including all the braided lines. If you do not find a leak, then you have a leak in the underground line. Refer to my previous comment for what to do about that.

drtbys

I will have to check and see if the bubbles stay or if they go away and digging out the tank is not an option because I live in Alaska and the ground is just slightly frozen at the moment

drtbys

would copper lines be better than braided lines? And with the tiger loop that has the fuel filter directly on the bottom of it be better than the one that I have or would none of that make a difference

EdTheHeaterMan

If you have a serious fuel line leak, nothing outside of replacing or repairing the leak will solve the problem. As far as the braided fuel lnes are concerned. I find the connections on those lines are superior to many of the DIY flare that some mechanics come up with. sometimes mechanics use cheep flare tools, sometimes the internal burr on the copper tubing is not properly dressed resulting in a leaking flare connection.

Add enough small leaks together and you have a large leak that no one can locate, because the "large leak" is all over the place.

drtbys

OK I will check all those connections It just seems weird to me that it would run for several hours half a day whatever and then not light and then I reset it and it does it again for maybe a day or half a day. I guess I would think if there is a leak somewhere, then it would always leak and not light but maybe I am not understanding something.

EdTheHeaterMan

drtbys said:

OK I will check all those connections It just seems weird to me that it would run for several hours half a day whatever and then not light and then I reset it and it does it again for maybe a day or half a day. I guess I would think if there is a leak somewhere, then it would always leak and not light but maybe I am not understanding something.

Makes sense to me, here is why:
During any 24 hour period, there will be higher outdoor temperatures and lower outdoor temperatures. when there are lower outdoor temperatures the time between run cycles will be shorter. When the outdoor temperatures are higher, the time between run cycles will be longer.

If there is a leak and enough time, the prepurge time and the safety lock out time may add up to enough time to prime the burner if the OFF cycles are short. If the OFF cycle is longer then there is more time to leak more air in the line. If the prepurge and safety time needed to purge and prime the pump is not long enough, then there will be a safety lock out. It only needs to happen once for the flame failure to cause the lockout.

Does your diagnostic on the primary let you know if there is a delay in the ignition on any previous cycle? Can you add more time to the pre-purge time on your primary control? Adding pre-purge time will be a temporary fix until the summer when you can get to replacing the fuel line. A more permanent fix might be to get a new basement or above ground tank. (indoor in location for tank in Alaska). Just offering options. Not intending to spend money you may not have.

drtbys

OK thank you for the info. I much appreciate it.  I think it will tell me if there is a delay.  I don't think I can change the pre-purge time on the current control but if I put in that other primary control that I have, I think I can do it on that one I'll have to read the book again.  i'll have to dig into it more this weekend when I have time.

MaxMercy

drtbys said:

so I have a genesis 7505 primary control but attached to that I have a contractor diagnostic digital display tool and it does tell me the ohms.  

when its running the ohms are 100
in standby mode the ohms are >50 

The run ohms are excellent.

I have that same control and contractor tool, but mine shuts down the burner when I try to use the contractor tool. There was a software mistake on some of them, and I have one of those (figures). Beckett explained the manufacturer's defect with the contractor tool when I contacted them, but didn't offer to help.

Because I don't know how the Genysis works with the contractor tool (anyone want to buy it?), I don't know if it will give you a reason you're locking out, but if it's because of delayed ignition, it should tell you that at least.

drtbys

The message I get is: did not light

drtbys

it does have a five year warranty, so if yours is still under warranty, you should be able to get it replaced

MaxMercy

drtbys said:

The message I get is: did not light

Did it mention "ignition" specifically or just that it didn't light (that isn't much help, is it...) Maybe they can't determine a no-ignition condition from a no fuel condition..

Do you have a clean cut solenoid on the pump? Those can intermit, but you hate to fire the parts cannon at it. Too bad it runs more than not. In any service trade, intermittents are tough unless they happen often enough to catch it happening.

Did you notice if the lockouts happen after a long period of inactivity, such as a thermostat set-back program, or could it be at anytime?

drtbys

this is the list of things it can do

32 character backlit alphanumeric display
Sealed pushbutton keypad
Low voltage operation
Continuous real-time cycle monitoring Continuous cad cell resistance reading Continuous AC line voltage read-out
Real-time error notification
Customizable pre-time (valve-on delay)
Customizable post-time (motor off delay)
15 cycle history monitoring
Five Year Warranty
Customizable lockout service message

drtbys

I don't know the answer to the solenoid question and I'm not sure on the delays cause I'm not home very much. I just happen to walk in the garage and see that the lights blinking or I don't have hot water and figured out the boiler is off. maybe I need to put a video camera on it and then check the video after like 10 or 12 hours and see what its doing

Jon_blaney

Had this happen twice. Burners would run fine and then under stress, on cold night, with multiple cycles, burner quits. Hit the reset in the AM and it lights right off. The ignition module heats up and fails.

STEVEusaPA

MaxMercy said:

drtbys said:

so I have a genesis 7505 primary control but attached to that I have a contractor diagnostic digital display tool and it does tell me the ohms.  

when its running the ohms are 100
in standby mode the ohms are >50 

The run ohms are excellent.

I have that same control and contractor tool, but mine shuts down the burner when I try to use the contractor tool. There was a software mistake on some of them, and I have one of those (figures). Beckett explained the manufacturer's defect with the contractor tool when I contacted them, but didn't offer to help.

Because I don't know how the Genysis works with the contractor tool (anyone want to buy it?), I don't know if it will give you a reason you're locking out, but if it's because of delayed ignition, it should tell you that at least.

100 ohms may not be excellent, especially without knowing all the other combustion numbers, smoke test and draft. Might be way too lean.

drtbys

I have the print out at home from when he tuned it. I'll have to get that info and post it.

MaxMercy

STEVEusaPA said:

100 ohms may not be excellent, especially without knowing all the other combustion numbers, smoke test and draft. Might be way too lean.

I've found that lower resistance numbers tend to the rich side?? I may have that backwards.

drtbys

I thought that the more light the CAD cell sees the lower the OHMS and the less light the higher the OHMS??

HVACNUT

Find and repair the leak. 

MaxMercy

drtbys said:

I thought that the more light the CAD cell sees the lower the OHMS and the less light the higher the OHMS??

That is correct, the resistance (ohms) drops as light increases.

Kickstand55

As I read all the above, thoughts of buried tanks haunt me. I have not yet read anything about cold oil or gelling. This can cause the very viscous, (thick) oil to boil or separate the molecules under a vacuum making the situation look like an air leak. This would only be seen if the temperature of the oil warms up in the conditioned space. Be sure you are adding an anti-gell agent and a boicide to the tank minimizing waxing and algae growth, (sludge) in the tank. Seen this too many times.
Follow up on all the above with a vacuum gauge, usually can be mounted at or near the filter and/or the fuel unit.
Hope this helped.
Keep us posted on the result.

Dave Carpentier

Maybe that video camera idea would be useful. Could you capture the Tigerloop and the blinking/error light in the same frame ? Is the Tigerloop running out of visible oil and thats when the burner/control trips out ?

drtbys

so it has run flawlessly for the last week.  only change that has been made is we fixed a small leak on the glycol return line, but that would have nothing to do with it lighting.  I figure its like Ed mentioned above; the more often it cycles the less likely the problem will show up if it is a small air leak in the fuel supply.  It has gotten colder this week and is now gonna be -15 to -20+ for the next several days so obviously will be running more.  We'll see when temps come back up if the issue re-surfaces.

rick in Alaska

If you are seeing full time bubbles in the Tigerloop when it is running, then there is an air leak in the suction line. I have had the tigerloop hoses leak before, so am wondering if maybe one of them might be partially internally collapsed and causing a restriction. You could try swapping the supply and return hoses and see if anything changes, which might lead you to the bad one. Also, you can get an air conditioner sight glass that plugs in to the incoming line so you can actually see any air bubbles.
Rick