Help with moving expansion tank from supply side to the return side of circulator/boiler.

newtonkid88

I've read on here that my expansion tank is installed incorrectly. I now have the chance to move it. Do my drawings look correct?

I'm unsure about if the existing pressure regulator and backflow preventer will be correct after the expansion tank location change.

There is very little space between the circulator and the indirect WH return pipe.

Thanks

hot_rod

snap a pic of the top of the boiler. Looks like a ball valve up there? could you move the circulator up there?

If you move the tank down to the return, the fill should also connect there.

It may be easier to move the pump up instead of the tank down? The tank and fill could stay put.

newtonkid88

The red handled ball valve goes to the indirect WH. The teflon'd cap on top will be going to the HWBB manifold. I would like to move as few things as possible.

leonz

Did you install this snakes nest????

newtonkid88

leonz said:

Did you install this cluster______????

Lol no, the oil company did

newtonkid88

I have updated this drawing to have the fill on the return side.

leonz

The system needs work/gutting, they were not friends of yours for sure.

I do not see a Low Water Cut Off anywhere; it needs one for code.


If it was me:

1. Remove everything back to the boiler tappings.

2. install the circulator so it is pumping away from the boiler in the highest tapping.

3. Use all three of Dans hot water heating bibles CLASSIC HYDRONICS, PUMPING AWAY and "HOW COME"
to plumb that boiler the right way.

I would make them come back and fix it correctly.

HomerJSmith

I assume you are experiencing no problems with your current setup.

This boiler is used for domestic hot water production, only, it appears to me.

Yup. Being a cast iron HX, the pressure loss thru the HX is low and you are essentially pumping into the expansion tank. As "only" a domestic hot water supply, as long as you have adaquate supply water flow thru the boiler, I don't think its present location is a major problem, but I may be wrong. Others may have a different opinion.

Of course, doing it right at the time of installation would have been preferable.

leonz

Did they install a new liner in the chimney or did they just pour cement around the flue pipe??

How do they expect you to change the flue pipe when it corrodes? UGH!!

newtonkid88

leonz said:

The system needs work/gutting, they were not friends of yours for sure. I do not see a Low Water Cut Off anywhere; it needs one for code. If it was me: 1. Remove everything back to the boiler tappings. 2. install the circulator so it is pumping away from the boiler in the highest tapping. 3. Use all three of Dans hot water heating bibles CLASSIC HYDRONICS, PUMPING AWAY and "HOW COME" to plumb that boiler the right way. I would make them come back and fix it correctly.

I REALLY dont want to disassemble everything. They installed the system about 2 years ago. It was inspected by the fire department only, because of the new oil tank.

The larger exhaust pipe was original. I think the put the smaller diameter pipe inside the larger pipe and filled around it with a cement type putty product. It is hard now.

newtonkid88

HomerJSmith said:

I assume you are experiencing no problems with your current setup. This boiler is used for domestic hot water production, only, it appears to me. Yup. Being a cast iron HX, the pressure loss thru the HX is low and you are essentially pumping into the expansion tank. As "only" a domestic hot water supply, as long as you have adaquate supply water flow thru the boiler, I don't think its present location is a major problem, but I may be wrong. Others may have a different opinion. Of course, doing it right at the time of installation would have been preferable.

They installed the boiler and oil tank, retrofitting it into an existing monoflo loop system. It worked fine.

Now I am replacing the baseboards to seperate the 1st and 2nd floor into two zones. Running homerun/manifold system.

hot_rod

newtonkid88 said:

I have updated this drawing to have the fill on the return side. 

Yes that will work  When you pipe off the top of that tee for the BB loops, add a vertical air sep there.  the small float vent on the indirect is really not an air purger. A good microbubble type purger will help keep all circuits air free and efficient.

newtonkid88

hot_rod said:

newtonkid88 said:

I have updated this drawing to have the fill on the return side. 

Yes that will work  When you pipe off the top of that tee for the BB loops, add a vertical air sep there.  the small float vent on the indirect is really not an air purger. A good microbubble type purger will help keep all circuits air free and efficient.

Is this a “good microbubble purger”? (Old picture). The top of the vertical tree will become horizontal before it splits into two zones. So I should be able to reuse this spirovent.? Thanks

hot_rod

Not bad🥴

newtonkid88

hot_rod said:

Not bad🥴

Haha what’s an example of a good microbubble thing?

hot_rod

newtonkid88 said:

hot_rod said:

Not bad🥴

Haha what’s an example of a good microbubble thing?

Why Caleffi of course Large diameter body, pined float, composite media, easily disassembled to clean or replace top, optional caps, high Cv.

The Caleffi float type auto air vents are often used to upgrade other brands.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@newtonkid88


Take the plug out of the tee above the pump and hook the expansion tank and make up water in there it will be fine

newtonkid88

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@newtonkid88 Take the plug out of the tee above the pump and hook the expansion tank and make up water in there it will be fine

Thanks. That location is where I drew it in my PROPOSED drawing

leonz

newtonkid88 said:

hot_rod said:

Not bad🥴

Haha what’s an example of a good microbubble thing?

=================================================================
Whats a good example of a very, very good air eliminator?

A B+G steel compression tank with a glass tube water level gauge that hangs in the ceiling joists, an B+G Internal Air Separator and B+G airtrol valve are underneath it and are a perfect microbubble and air eliminator, no moving parts, no cleaning and no bleeding of radiators ever if its plumbed correctly.
Automatic air vents will fail and have to be replaced, that is why I got rid of all of mine.

I hope for your sake that the propress fittings those geniuses used do not leak as the boiler will need to be drained. The ones installed by the clowns I hired to put in a simple boiler blew out drained my well and made a mess in my boiler/laundry room.

hot_rod

leonz said:

hot_rod said:

Not bad🥴

Haha what’s an example of a good microbubble thing?

================================================================= Whats a good example of a very, very good air eliminator? A B+G steel compression tank with a glass tube water level gauge that hangs in the ceiling joists, an B+G Internal Air Separator and B+G airtrol valve are underneath it and are a perfect microbubble and air eliminator, no moving parts, no cleaning and no bleeding of radiators ever if its plumbed correctly. Automatic air vents will fail and have to be replaced, that is why I got rid of all of mine. I hope for your sake that the propress fittings those geniuses used do not leak as the boiler will need to be drained. The ones installed by the clowns I hired to put in a simple boiler blew out drained my well and made a mess in my boiler/laundry room.

My experience is that you need a mesh or media in the flow to grab micro air. How does the B&G boiler fitting grab the small bubbles? 

From my clear pipe and Sep demos a bubble needs to be about 1/2” diameter to float up to an air vent. If the system is over pumped, running above 4-5 fps the air does not rise out of a pipe at all, it stays entrained in the fluid.

Just for grins we test separators out to 10 fps. While a bit less efficient, it takes more passes,  the media still capturers the small air.

Must be a reason that Spiro developed micro bubble resorbers, and everyone offers a version, including B&G.

newtonkid88

leonz said:

hot_rod said:

Not bad🥴

Haha what’s an example of a good microbubble thing?

A couple of the propress fittings were seeping, no actual drips. They were removed by me to do the manifold type system.

HomerJSmith

Ok so you're doing space heating, too. Pics further away would be helpful, showing the whole piping arrangement.

I truthfully don't like the piping. It appears to me to be done by a plumber, not a hydronic specialist. There is a lot of pressure loss pushing water out of the side port of a black iron tee, for one or into one. I personally hate mixing black iron pipe with copper. Copper is smoother inside where as BI pipe is rougher and presents a greater pressure loss. It just plain doesn't look right.

Yes, I would change the location of the EX tank since you're doing space heating, too. Your piping configuration has a lot more pressure loss than need be and the present location of the EX tank aggravates the situation.

leonz

hot_rod said:

leonz said:

newtonkid88 said:

hot_rod said:

Not bad🥴

Haha what’s an example of a good microbubble thing?

=================================================================
Whats a good example of a very, very good air eliminator?

A B+G steel compression tank with a glass tube water level gauge that hangs in the ceiling joists, an B+G Internal Air Separator and B+G airtrol valve are underneath it and are a perfect microbubble and air eliminator, no moving parts, no cleaning and no bleeding of radiators ever if its plumbed correctly.
Automatic air vents will fail and have to be replaced, that is why I got rid of all of mine.

I hope for your sake that the propress fittings those geniuses used do not leak as the boiler will need to be drained. The ones installed by the clowns I hired to put in a simple boiler blew out drained my well and made a mess in my boiler/laundry room.

My experience is that you need a mesh or media in the flow to grab micro air. How does the B&G boiler fitting grab the small bubbles? 

From my clear pipe and Sep demos a bubble needs to be about 1/2” diameter to float up to an air vent. If the system is over pumped, running above 4-5 fps the air does not rise out of a pipe at all, it stays entrained in the fluid.

Just for grins we test separators out to 10 fps. While a bit less efficient, it takes more passes,  the media still capturers the small air.

Must be a reason that Spiro developed micro bubble resorbers, and everyone offers a version, including B&G.

==================================================================================================================================

Hello Bob,

The B+G system uses an Internal Air Separator that consists of a cast steel piece that has an internal baffle that forces the air bubbles upward as the water flows by it into the heating loops.

The air bubbles that hit the baffle are forced upward into the 1/2 inch line that feeds them to the airtrol valve which has a two chamber casting.

The hot water which has the air bubbles and microbubbles rises directly into the steel compression tank and into the blanket of water and the air bubbles dissolve and float up into the air blanket.
As the water cools it falls downward into the return side of the airtrol valve and back into the water flow.

B+G also shows one of their air scoops being used with the 1/2 copper pipe rising to the the B+G airtrol valve at the base of one of their B+G/Wessels steel compression tanks in thier plumbing designs.

I am sure that xylem copied the spiro design to some extent to corner thier share of the market.

I don't have to do anything other than turn the coal stoker on at the start of the heating season and let it run.

Leon

hot_rod

HomerJSmith said:

Ok so you're doing space heating, too. Pics further away would be helpful, showing the whole piping arrangement.

I truthfully don't like the piping. It appears to me to be done by a plumber, not a hydronic specialist. There is a lot of pressure loss pushing water out of the side port of a black iron tee, for one or into one. I personally hate mixing black iron pipe with copper. Copper is smoother inside where as BI pipe is rougher and presents a greater pressure loss. It just plain doesn't look right.

Yes, I would change the location of the EX tank since you're doing space heating, too. Your piping configuration has a lot more pressure loss than need be and the present location of the EX tank aggravates the situation.

True the steel "black" pipe is rougher inside, but it also has a larger ID. 3/4" copper 7/8 OD just about fits inside 3/4 black. So any pressure drop is probably offset by diameter increase?

I think personal preference or a certain look is the biggest reason to chose piping material. It is getting more rare, but threaded steel piped hydronic boiler rooms show up on social media from time to time. I think @GroundUp does threaded pipe from time to time?

leonz

HomerJSmith said:

Ok so you're doing space heating, too. Pics further away would be helpful, showing the whole piping arrangement.

I truthfully don't like the piping. It appears to me to be done by a plumber, not a hydronic specialist. There is a lot of pressure loss pushing water out of the side port of a black iron tee, for one or into one. I personally hate mixing black iron pipe with copper. Copper is smoother inside where as BI pipe is rougher and presents a greater pressure loss. It just plain doesn't look right.

Yes, I would change the location of the EX tank since you're doing space heating, too. Your piping configuration has a lot more pressure loss than need be and the present location of the EX tank aggravates the situation.

=================================================================

"That is why I said if it were me I would take everything back to the boiler tapping's".

Properly done, steel pipe works well as long as its reamed and cleaned and free of burrs that will cause cavitation and slow the water down-Yes Dan, I remember the rules about making sure gravity hot water
piping has no rough spots to slow water down as it rises to the top of the heating system into the open to air expansion tank.

The 2 major things that stick out and poke you in the eye are the lack of a Low Water Cut Off and the location of the pressure relief valve.

If they had followed Dans writing and made a pump module you would not see that snakes nest and you can see they are not licensed hot water or steam plumbers.

MY old Buderus Logana G205 had a pipe casting that came right out of the upper tapping above the flue breach and it was tapped specifically for the pressure relief valve.

Losing that boiler in exchange for a dual fuel coal stoker was a mistake just as losing the Avco Lycoming boiler was when I believed the plumber saying it was leaking and had go which turned into a $4,800.00
installation in 1988 (I found out the boiler was not leaking.

Every elbow and tee in that snake nest is going to cause head loss and increase friction.

The circulator pushing the water into the boiler sump is increasing the resistance to water flow.

If it does not have a check valve in the outlet of the circulator it should have one to prevent ghost flow back up the pipe.

As Dan has said in his writing be the ball/marble in a pipe to see which way it travels the easiest or something to that effect. Every drop of water and molecule of hydrogen and oxygen bangs into every tee and elbow and fights the resistance they create. They just made a christmas tree of fittings like the ones on oil and gas wells.

I doubt a plumbing inspector would have passed that and would have red tagged it because of the lack of a low water cut off and the location of the PRV.


My thoughts anyway.

newtonkid88

Where would the LWCO be installed? Here are more pictures.

hot_rod

Personally I don't think the system is piped all that bad, certainly works as is? It is neatly done.
Add a tee on top of that plugged one and put the low water cutoff there. Generally they need to go into a threaded tee, not a copper with stub and adapter. So an easy add on when you continue piping.

Maybe a bit better support for the expansion tank, turn it down for the preferred mounting position also.

When you start piping the heating loops you'll start with a zone valve(s), since the boiler circ supplies both DHW and heating. I'd like to see an ECM delta P circulator when using zone valves, especially if you multi zone the heating. As long as you don't have high pressure drop heating loops, that single speed circ will be fine.

newtonkid88

Thanks. Which tee are you talking about? The one on top reducer/plug and white tape? Or the tee right above the circulator?

Which brand or model low water cut off is recommended?

So, the expansion tank should be positioned with the label right-side-up, not upside down?

hot_rod said:

Personally I don't think the system is piped all that bad, certainly works as is? It is neatly done.
Add a tee on top of that plugged one and put the low water cutoff there. Generally they need to go into a threaded tee, not a copper with stub and adapter. So an easy add on when you continue piping.

Maybe a bit better support for the expansion tank, turn it down for the preferred mounting position also.

When you start piping the heating loops you'll start with a zone valve(s), since the boiler circ supplies both DHW and heating. I'd like to see an ECM delta P circulator when using zone valves, especially if you multi zone the heating. As long as you don't have high pressure drop heating loops, that single speed circ will be fine.

HomerJSmith

Personally I don't think the system is piped all that bad, certainly works as is? It is neatly done.

I never thought I would disagree with hot_rod, but in this case I do. I think is is poorly piped. How well it works, I wonder.

newtonkid88

HomerJSmith said:

Personally I don't think the system is piped all that bad, certainly works as is? It is neatly done.

I never thought I would disagree with hot_rod, but in this case I do. I think is is poorly piped. How well it works, I wonder.

I think he's trying to make me feel better about it lol

I believe it worked well as a monoflo system. But I really have no data to back it up. Just a "NO HEAT" or "YES HEAT." I definitely had heat.

hot_rod

HomerJSmith said:

Personally I don't think the system is piped all that bad, certainly works as is? It is neatly done.

I never thought I would disagree with hot_rod, but in this case I do. I think is is poorly piped. How well it works, I wonder.

What in the current hydronic piping would cause it to not work? The pump on the return? Most US manufactured packaged boilers have been that way for 50- 60 years now Not ideal, in a wide open low pressure drop system it will and does work.

The OP asked about updating piping, that is what he is getting.

hot_rod

newtonkid88 said:

Thanks. Which tee are you talking about? The one on top reducer/plug and white tape? Or the tee right above the circulator?

Which brand or model low water cut off is recommended?

So, the expansion tank should be positioned with the label right-side-up, not upside down?

hot_rod said:

Personally I don't think the system is piped all that bad, certainly works as is? It is neatly done.
Add a tee on top of that plugged one and put the low water cutoff there. Generally they need to go into a threaded tee, not a copper with stub and adapter. So an easy add on when you continue piping.

Maybe a bit better support for the expansion tank, turn it down for the preferred mounting position also.

When you start piping the heating loops you'll start with a zone valve(s), since the boiler circ supplies both DHW and heating. I'd like to see an ECM delta P circulator when using zone valves, especially if you multi zone the heating. As long as you don't have high pressure drop heating loops, that single speed circ will be fine.

Yes the tank should be mounted nipple up. Although this too is debatable as far as operation and life expectancy. Plenty of them get mounted horizontal or nipple down like yours.
Zilmet brand install manual shows both being acceptable, nipple up preferred..

This was my go to for LWC device, yes a tee above the plugged one on top of that boiler header.

leonz

newtonkid88 said:

Where would the LWCO be installed? Here are more pictures.

================================================================

UMMM,

Why is that oil line directly on the floor?????????????????????????????????????????????????
Where is the oil filter?? did they install a tiger loop?
Is the oil tank set up as a top draw tank or a bottom draw tank??

================================================================


The two tapping's near the flue pipe could not be used due to the heat-I am assuming they are not domestic coil tapping"s either.

The low water cut off is going to have to be installed either in the return water flow or the out flow in a
an NPT National Pipe Thread female Tee; Most all of them are direct immersion units and designed with 3/4" 3/4" NPT thread to allow you to install them in a 3/4" tapping in the steam jacket of the boiler.

If there are no usable tapping's under the boiler skin covers your going to have to break into the plumbing mess and either put it in the return tapping in the boiler sump or the piping feeding the zones AFTER that
green box wired to controller.

The Low Water Cut Off provides the most protection for the boiler when it is wired as the first electrical control for the boiler and shuts off all power to the boiler if it senses no water in the steam jacket.

The 110 volt power from the circuit break box for the boiler is hard wired into the Low Water Cut off and then more BX cable is connected to the terminals and routed to the aquastat and then to the burner.

The simplest way to do it would be to use the sump return line by breaking the existing nipple and
installing a short nipple then a union and short nipple then the Tee and then a second second union and nipple.


A LWCO is cheap insurance in the scheme of things.

hot_rod

this tee would work also. Maybe there is a plan for it? Return from the heating loops? If so add a tee. I like the tee added on the supply best.

newtonkid88

hot_rod said:

this tee would work also. Maybe there is a plan for it? Return from the heating loops? If so add a tee. I like the tee added on the supply best.

I was going to use that tee for the expansion tank and make-up water

newtonkid88

leonz said:

================================================================ UMMM, Why is that oil line directly on the floor????????????????????????????????????????????????? Where is the oil filter?? did they install a tiger loop? Is the oil tank set up as a top draw tank or a bottom draw tank?? ==================================

I dont know about tiger loop. It’s a copper line with a plastic coating on it. The line runs along the foundation wall on the floor. The fire dept inspected it so I assume it’s okay.

hot_rod

newtonkid88 said:

hot_rod said:

this tee would work also. Maybe there is a plan for it? Return from the heating loops? If so add a tee. I like the tee added on the supply best.

I was going to use that tee for the expansion tank and make-up water


A nipple and a tee on top where that plug is would be my choice. Into the boiler block or header is the very best. It needs to be below valves so it can always "see" the level in the boiler, ideally.

Keep it in a tee that sees flow, not on a dead end nipple where air can trap.

Some boilers have pressure switches included that act or serve as the same purpose. Mostly mod cons, does that boiler have one?

newtonkid88

hot_rod 

A nipple and a tee on top where that plug is would be my choice. Into the boiler block or header is the very best. It needs to be below valves so it can always "see" the level in the boiler, ideally. Keep it in a tee that sees flow, not on a dead end nipple where air can trap. Some boilers have pressure switches included that act or serve as the same purpose. Mostly mod cons, does that boiler have one?

Since the LWCO has to always see flow, neither of those tees we mention would be good. The indirect WH is plumbed below the tees.

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/manuals/1249544647674/17210_PROD_FILE.pdf

The manual does not mention low water cut off. Is there another name for LWCO that I can search for?

newtonkid88

I see these plugs on the back of the boiler. There are 3 total.

The blue cube-looking box on top is called a HydroStat. Is that a LWCO?

Steamhead

All-

This boiler already has a low-water cutoff. It's part of the HydroStat (blue box) sitting on top of the boiler. You can see the "Low Water" light in the last pic if you look closely enough.

STEVEusaPA

If it has the LWCO enabled with the proper well, is with the aquastat as @Steamhead mentioned.
@leonz, oil lines are on the floor all the time. How else would you run it? Hanging in the air?
The oil line installed meets code. I would add an oil safety valve, although the oil filter may have one built in, can’t tell from the pic.