learning and paying the price

don123

Thank you mattmia2 I will look at them.

don123

This was the one i was looking at

don123

I would use the bottom port/drain as the radiant return and cap the cold inlet at the top.

mattmia2

It is better to ask questions on the post than in a private message. Private messages don't have a great interface to reply to them and it is better to have more people see the answer because sometimes we are wrong or missed something.

To answer your question, if you isolate the radiant tubing using a heat exchanger (such as an actual heat exchanger or a stainless steel indirect) and use all nonferrous components for the isolated side of the heat exchanger then you don't need to use inhibitor.

If you don't use a heat exchanger then the only way you could avoid using inhibitors is if the circulators are nonferrous and all of the piping components are brass/copper/plastic, no steel piping components and the boiler is stainless and rated for use with open systems. If it is a conventional cast iron boiler or it is a mod con boiler not rated for open systems then you still would need to use and maintain inhibitor(boilers that do allow open systems may require the use of inhibitor if they are on open systems).

hot_rod

I see the PM now, I don’t check it often 

yes for that tank as your HX, increase those 3/4” connections at the tank, a foot or so if large pipe. I’d use a 1-1/4 x 3/4 reducer to make the increase. Probably a threaded bell then to copper.  There are 3/4 fip x 1-1/4 copper adapters but not so easy to find

don123

Ok could you take a look at all the pipe sizes and layout in this drawing? The Return will be 1 1/4 right up to the 3/4 inlet on the bottom return. The Supply will be increased to 1 1/4 right at the top of the indirect.

don123

would this expansion tank be usable for the radiant zone off the indirect? its a Amtrol therm-x-trol ST30V Part # 143N273 its a little over sized but was given to me.

mattmia2

That should work because it is designed for open systems. It may not last quite as long at heating temps but the radiant zone should be closer to dhw temps anyhow. Just adjust the charge to match your system pressure before you install it.

don123

Thank you mattmia2. yes, I will reset it to 12psi. before installing it.

don123

The zone valves I'm looking at are Caleffi Z46 for the indirect and Z45 for the baseboard. As for The zone controller I'm looking at ZVR104 I'm guessing these work together would I be correct ? From Supplyhouse.com

GGross

@don123
Yes, They work together

don123

Thank you GGross for your response

mattmia2

Most 24 ac power open self closing valves will work with most zone controls. I like the taco zone sentry valves a lot because they have phoenix connectors that unplug for the connections and you just press a little clip and the motor pops off the valve body.

don123

Thank you mattmia2 i will look at them as well. This project cost is getting up there. I'm pricing stuff out.
what would you recommend for a brand new ci boiler to flush out the factory dirty water that was in it. i was looking at sentinel x300 QT and could i run this through the radiant onix as well? Your thoughts.

hot_rod

If you use the Caleffi zone valves and Caleffi relays, you get a 5 year warranty on both components

Rhomar, Fernox, Adey, Sentinel are all good brands of cleaners

i think the same butyl EPDM diaphram is used in ExTrol and ThermTrol tanks

don123

Thank you, I'm going over my drawing and trying to think like water, will it be an issue to where I have my high temp zone tying in before the 280 boiler protection valve.? should it be after the 280 and before the boiler pump? I maybe over thinking.

hot_rod

The return from the high temperature zone is before the 280 valve. It senses all return flows and modulates accordingly. The valve never shuts off flow in both ports, so the pump never dead-heads if that is what you are asking.

don123

Thank you, yes, that's what is was thinking. I was thinking it may dead head the circ on first start up of the BB due to the colder return temp.

don123

Would I get any benefit to using outdoor reset with my setup? In the past I would manually adjust the control run the boiler in the late spring, summer, early fall around 160*, then back to 180* for heating season.

hot_rod

don123 said:

Would I get any benefit to using outdoor reset with my setup? In the past I would manually adjust the control run the boiler in the late spring, summer, early fall around 160*, then back to 180* for heating season.

With a cast boiler you probably will not be able to run much below 150F SWT. Is 160 the lowest temperature you can run and get sufficient heat output? So the ODR would be able to maybe run 150- 180F? The get 140F supply to radiant from the indirect you will probably need 150 or so boiler supply.
If your boiler control has that ODR function, no harm in trying it. It just involves a sensor on a north facing wall, or up under an eve out of the sunshine.

Ideally the lowest possible SWT at any given time will be your most efficient operating condition, with the boiler return temperature protected, of course.

don123

Good day Hot rod! If I do use the ODR option I have a good spot for it, it would be located up Under the back deck that is on the North side it gets No sunlight Under the deck and usually 5-10 deg. cooler at any given time of the year and snow wont gather on it and will not effect it. Summer, late fall I can run the indirect easily with 160F boiler supply since the incoming water is a little warmer (65F)Two showers at the same time, The winter incoming domestic water temp (43F This is the coldest incoming temp) it needs180F and take back to back showers without running out of hot water. we also have a pellet stove on the first floor that we use to heat the house.
The electric WH that I'm using now during this project for my domestic hot water I may keep and use as a incoming water storage tank to supply somewhat tempered water to the indirect. My thinking is if the winter cold water temp coming in is around 43F it would warm up a little may become 50-52F with this the indirect wont need to run as long and may benefit the first shower. The power to the electric WH would be shut off after my project is complete. I don't think legionella would be an issue since the water temp would be below the grow temperature, and anytime hot water is used it goes throw the storage tank constantly flowing clean water. What's
your thoughts.

hot_rod

No harm in pre heating incoming water, every btu you add will subtract from what the boiler has to add
I don’t se a recirc pump? If you have, or add one it would pipe differently.

add a couple solar PV modules and fire that electric tank to pre-heat. Sun Bandit builds a kit for that. PV direct to the elements 

don123

Thank you Hot Rod. No domestic recirc. this year. Some of the boiler components will be here Tuesday from supplyhouse.com. they have the best prices on what I ordered (I highly recommend others to do the same) compared to where I would normally get my stock. The Indirect for the radiant I can pick up anytime this week after I get out of my day job. Thanks again for helping me through this project. I know ill have questions as I go. I will post pics as I go along.

mattmia2

The prices for copper fittings from home depot are insane.

If you think you will do recirculation, i would put the tees in for it now and put in a capped stub so it is easier to add later.

don123

Thank you! I would need to add two spring check and two flow controls (cant think of the correct name right now of the flow controls) one on the cold inlet to the electric and one on the cold inlet to the mixing valve. I think by piping this way I could keep the water in the electric a little warmer because I don't plan on leaving the power on to the electric tank. It would become just a storage/buffer. I have the tank might as well utilize it. But this would have to be done at another time. Agree, disagree what's your thoughts on the locations of the tees and check valves.
As for Home Depot NO. unless my supply house that I use is closed.

don123

Hi Heating Help back with another question. when using the Caleffi manifold 172 series with my set up (The pic with a star a few posts up near the top on pg 2) do I use the H connection that comes with the manifold or do without it. Thank you.

hot_rod

Use a valve like the Caleffi 520 AngleMix, order it with the check valve tailpieces. The 520 works great if you add recirculating as it has close off on the hot port, no temperature creep issues. If you pipe the 172 from a primary secondary device, either P/S a Sep or large header at the tank, remove the H part.

don123

Thank you hot rod! I will post some pics tomorrow of what I have done so far as the boiler piping.

don123

Here is what i have done so far for the boiler piping.

don123

I'm looking at the Caleffi mixing valves on supplyhouse.com 521509A do I get the ones with check valves or without check valves for the radiant side. I'm also looking at Caleffi 668S1manifold for the zones that need 140 or a little more supply temp. The Caleffi 172 manifolds can only supply 130 max which will be fine for the other two zones. they only need 100-125. I understand that they have to be SS or bronze circulators?

hot_rod

The pumps in the 172 are cast iron. They are union body pumps so it may be expensive to find a stainless, bronze or composite volute. It is a Euro based pump, with those union connections.

Mix valves for radiant do not need checks. For DHW they need checks if you plan on recirculating at some point.i

don123

@hot_rod Hi Hot Rod, should I not use the 172 manifold for the radiant since it has CI circs? I didn't realize that those pumps were cast iron. I don't want to rust anything on the radiant side. glad I didn't perches those yet. Thank you for letting me know this. what would be my options? Go with the other caleffi 668 manifold's? and use ss circs. luckily I have 3-4 007 taco ss volutes that I could use, buy the taco 007 and take off the ci volute for the SS ones that I have. they do seem to match up. I'm in panic mode now. Thank You!

hot_rod

If the decisions are coming down to cost and practicality use the ss pumps you have and pipe a mix valve at the site. Use the Caleffi manifolds if you want those features, or a prebuilt copper manifold with zone valves of your choice. Choices from mild to wild and anything in between.

The mix valve could be at the boiler piping with the pump, the manifolds anywhere in the home that makes sense, that is one advantage of building your own mix manifolds.

don123

@hot_rod Okay, I'm going to go with separate mixing valves and circs, and use the manifolds with flow meters. Am I correct in the way I would pipe the supply and return? Thank you!

hot_rod

This might be a cleaner piping for the mix valve. A Webstone purge/ball valve on the return from the manifold just above the mix valve C connection, also

Piping looks 👍🏻 

don123

Nice! I do like that better. Thank you Hot Rod.