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NO lights on Ignition Control Module

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blank002m
blank002m Member Posts: 6
I can verify 120vac going into Heating System Controller for the Boiler (Buderus Logamatic R2107).
No lights on Ignition Control Module Carlin 60200-02. Not even the standard amber. Can verify that there's also no voltage on the Heating System Controller board going into the Ignition Control Module.

What would cause Heating System COntroller to pass power to the Ignition Controller?

I only saw one fuse on the board and it seemed intact.
Thoughts? Thanks.

Comments

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,157
    edited May 2022
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    That Logamatic control does not work on demand from a thermostat. It is an outdoor reset control that operates on outdoor temperature. As the outdoor temperature increases the boiler water temperature decreases. Is it possible that the control is on WWSD? (Warm Weather Shut Down). This is designed to shut off the power to the primary control on the oil burner (the Carlin 60200-02) if the outdoor temperature is above a preset outdoor temperature (like 65°). It's an energy saving thing!

    Not real sure how that model Logamatic is wired to that primary control. Low voltage or line voltage could be open for WWSD.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 1,388
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    If you don't have the manuals theses links may help, there are troubleshooting instructions. Sadly for me the electrical terminal labels on the R2107 are apparently maybe in German in the manual, hopefully they are in English on your unit.
    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Buderus-R2107-R2107-Logamatic-Control-w-DHW-Package
    https://carlincombustion.com/gas-oil-burner-products/controllers/primary-controllers-oil/60200-cad-cell-oil-primary-control/

    If it were me and IF there is no other reason not to. I would find the outdoor temperature sensor and put a bag of ice maybe wrapped in a cloth against it and see if things come to life, there may be a delay time. Or cool it down some other way that will not damage it.

    Inspect for damage or any loose connections system wide.

    Settings could be changed but I would be very careful with that idea, don't want to make matters worse.
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,876
    edited May 2022
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    Agree with @EdTheHeaterMan it could be in warm weather shutdown. 
    Is there an indirect water heater and you don't have hot water? That would be something else. 
    Is it switched to Auto or manual? If on Auto, try switching to manual. (with the ✋)
    If it fires, then you know the burner circuit is fine. You'll need to check the water heater sensor and the wiring. 
    Pics?

    If you leave it on manual, turn the temperature dial down to 140° while you investigate. 
  • blank002m
    blank002m Member Posts: 6
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    Thanks for your thoughts guys.

    I had previously set to manual @140 to prevent scalding like HVACNUT suggested and had identical symptoms. (granted I did not probe for power then. I can confirm no lights amber or otherwise on the Ignition controller). NO fire =(

    @Edtheheaterman
    Can confirm that there's a outside temp sensor for feedback.

    @HVACNUT "Is there an indirect water heater and you don't have hot water? That would be something else."
    Yes. I believe the boiler heats the water and then sends to Water tank. Boiler registers room temp as does the DHW.


    I only noticed 1 fuse on system controller on the board. Are there more? I'm not smart enough to identify locations on the device.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,157
    edited May 2022
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    Is there hot water in the hot water tank?
    Is the outside temperature above 65°?

    I don't know if there is another fuse.

    What is the reason you are concerned about power to the primary control (Carlin 60200-02)? Are you experiencing insufficient heat or no hot water?

    If you have sufficient heat and you have sufficient hot water then it may be experiencing normal operation.
    if you are experiencing a problem, then ask about that problem specifically and not just that there are no lights on a certain control. no lights on a certain control this time of year might be normal.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,157
    edited May 2022
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    After reading the instruction manual for the Logamatic, I see there is a manual reset. This will open the 120 V to the burner primary control if wired correctly. Have you tried the manual reset?



    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • blank002m
    blank002m Member Posts: 6
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    @EdTheHeaterMan

    Is there hot water in the hot water tank?
    -No. Hot tap draws cold water.

    Is the outside temperature above 65°?
    -It's about 50-70. roughly 65 in basement

    I don't know if there is another fuse.
    What is the reason you are concerned about power to the primary control (Carlin 60200-02)? Are you experiencing insufficient heat or no hot water?
    -The LED on the Carlin is not on. there's usually the amber LED to indicate nominal status,I confirmed I was not getting 120VAC passed from the main control unit. The igniter never fires. I can call for heat, the circulator starts, but the boiler never kicks on.

    If you have sufficient heat and you have sufficient hot water then it may be experiencing normal operation.
    -I have no heat/hot water.

    if you are experiencing a problem, then ask about that problem specifically and not just that there are no lights on a certain control. no lights on a certain control this time of year might be normal.
    -Sorry I thought it was implicit that I had no heat/hot water if I had zero Igniter Control status lights no apparent power to the unit.

    Looking back at this the original post was mildly incoherent. Apologies

    Re your picture. This is super helpful! The manuals I had did not have this diagram.

    I did pull the cap but didn't realize it was a button and didn't muck with it.
    I will also check this fuse. The other fuse I saw was on the board set.

    Hopefully it's something silly like this. The main control unit operation seems fine otherwise so hopefully nothing wrong w/the board.

    Thanks for the feedback!
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,157
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    Further investigation
    this diagram will cause the Carlin 60200-02 to have NO power during WWSD and Manual Reset limit open

    This diagram will have no power to the Carlin 60200-02 when Manual reset limit open. However, there may be power to the Carlin 60200-02 during WWSD.


    Both wiring diagrams are acceptable.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • blank002m
    blank002m Member Posts: 6
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    @EdTheHeaterMan
    Sounds promising. I did have those diagrams in my manual, but with much less resolution (IE only showed the power pinout to the carlin). If memory serves there were at least 2 jumpers on the control console so there's some difference here in configuration.

    I'll update when I get home.

    Hopefully it's as simple as a reset so I can beat the clock. I've got HVAC tech scheduled for tomorrow. My family's starting to mutiny.

    Thanks, sir!
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 1,388
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    blank002m said:

    I can verify 120vac going into Heating System Controller for the Boiler (Buderus Logamatic R2107).
    No lights on Ignition Control Module Carlin 60200-02. Not even the standard amber. Can verify that there's also no voltage on the Heating System Controller board going into the Ignition Control Module.

    What would cause Heating System COntroller to pass power to the Ignition Controller?

    I only saw one fuse on the board and it seemed intact.
    Thoughts? Thanks.

    To hyper focus on your questions;

    Shouldn't this read; What would cause Heating System COntroller to NOT pass power to the Ignition Controller?

    Somewhere there is an open circuit (a disconnected path, Electrical / Electronic and or Logical).

    The path mostly includes;
    (1) wires and their connections (terminal strips, wire-nuts and crimped on connection devices).
    (2) A relay inside the Buderus Logamatic R2107.
    (3) Solder connections inside the Buderus Logamatic R2107.
    (4) A failed (doing its job) fuse or overcurrent type device.
    (5) A failed solid state device (the electronics inside the Buderus Logamatic R2107) so that the relay inside the Buderus Logamatic R2107 is not being commanded to the active state (the Buderus Logamatic R2107 is logically calling the Ignition Control Module to activate, yet the relay remains inactive).
    (6) Some other thing that has changed to make the Buderus Logamatic R2107 not want to call for ignition.

    A failure of any one of these things will cause the Ignition Control Module Carlin 60200-02 to not fire. With items 1 through 5 even though the Buderus Logamatic R2107 is commanding such action it will cause the Ignition Control Module Carlin 60200-02 to not fire.

    Depending on your DIY skills any or most all for these defects may repairable. Typically though most DIY ends if the defect is inside the Buderus Logamatic R2107 unit in this case. A DIYer would probably be forced to replace the Buderus Logamatic R2107 unit.

    The job of the troubleshooter is to accurately determine the cause of the failure and take corrective action. Additionally make sure your meter in in Volts AC mode and you have verified that it works correctly. Work safely !!!
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • blank002m
    blank002m Member Posts: 6
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    Ed.
    You're totally right.
    Like I said it was mildly coherent. That's probably being generous.
    I believe I also started the post early in my troubleshooting and stuff got wonky as it was getting late and my brain was getting saturated. I kept doubting the AC multimeter numbers on my cheapy multimeter.

    The reset button did the trick!
    Do you know what would cause the fault mode to happen?
    IE is there another failure mode hidden behind the lock out?


    I appreciate your help on the matter!



  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 1,388
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    In this case your failure was a 'Logical' one and the 'Reset' cured it. A power On-Off-On cycle to the equipment may have had the same result. Power quality to Buderus Logamatic R2107 could be an issue. System loads switching on and off causing brownouts and / or Electrical noise.

    Hopefully your problem is gone forever or maybe just a reset once a year now that you know how to do it.
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,157
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    109A_5 said:

    In this case your failure was a 'Logical' one and the 'Reset' cured it. A power On-Off-On cycle to the equipment may have had the same result. Power quality to Buderus Logamatic R2107 could be an issue. (but probably not) System loads switching on and off causing brownouts and / or Electrical noise.

    Hopefully your problem is gone forever or maybe just a reset once a year now that you know how to do it.

    The crossed out statements are not a result of actual knowledge of the equipment in question. I know this because they are probably incorrect. The Logamatic manual reset must be manually reset. Power off/on will not reset the control as may be true on some American made gas furnaces.

    Power quality is always an issue for electronic controls but I doubt it was your problem

    Switching loads on and off is not a cause of brownouts. The overuse of the grid external to your home is the reason for brownouts.

    The most plausible reason is that the sensor connected to that manual reset switch actually reached its limit. So if you get a manual reset situation again, you will need to find out why this is happening. Perhaps your actual temperature settings are very close to the manual High Limit setting. If a circulator were to stop as a result of a power failure, then the temperature in the boiler could exceed the Manual reset limit setting. Since power failures are rare, then you should not experience this problem regularly.

    Hope this helps.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 1,388
    Options

    109A_5 said:

    In this case your failure was a 'Logical' one and the 'Reset' cured it. A power On-Off-On cycle to the equipment may have had the same result. Power quality to Buderus Logamatic R2107 could be an issue. (but probably not) System loads switching on and off causing brownouts and / or Electrical noise.

    Hopefully your problem is gone forever or maybe just a reset once a year now that you know how to do it.

    The crossed out statements are not a result of actual knowledge of the equipment in question. I know this because they are probably incorrect. The Logamatic manual reset must be manually reset. Power off/on will not reset the control as may be true on some American made gas furnaces.

    Power quality is always an issue for electronic controls but I doubt it was your problem

    Switching loads on and off is not a cause of brownouts. The overuse of the grid external to your home is the reason for brownouts.

    The most plausible reason is that the sensor connected to that manual reset switch actually reached its limit. So if you get a manual reset situation again, you will need to find out why this is happening. Perhaps your actual temperature settings are very close to the manual High Limit setting. If a circulator were to stop as a result of a power failure, then the temperature in the boiler could exceed the Manual reset limit setting. Since power failures are rare, then you should not experience this problem regularly.

    Hope this helps.

    @EdTheHeaterMan, we'll have to agree to disagree. Electronic devices containing 'Embedded Microcontrollers' can have many tiers of Microcontroller reset capabilities, some only known to the Engineers that engineered the hardware and software.

    A brownout is often a generic term generally used to describe an electrical power grid anomaly (a dip in Voltage) HOWEVER it is not limited to that definition. It can be a very local thing. With a typical residential 240 Volt electrical service if the neutral going back to the pole transformer opens or has high resistance, the voltage on one hot leg will rise and the other will 'Brownout' or decrease depending on the instantaneous load balance in the home. If the connection at the circuit breaker for the boiler system is loose and a circulator pump turns on the voltage to the rest of the boiler system may 'Brownout' or decrease. And how do we know there was not a grid Brownout or switching event that glitched the Buderus Logamatic R2107 in the middle of the night ???

    Just because you are unaware does not mean it is not so.

    @blank002m obviously will have to monitor the situation. If a sensor "reached its limit" and is defective enough to shut down the DHW functionality without an error message that is a BAD design. I would verify that all applicable electrical connections are secure. At least that is easy and eliminates that variable from future failures.
    Hopefully there are none.
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,876
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    The display on the 2107 didn't show an error for that?
  • blank002m
    blank002m Member Posts: 6
    edited May 2022
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    @109A_5 and @EdTheHeaterMan
    Thanks for the discourse. As a total layman this is interesting to look in on.

    I can confirm that the manual power cycle of the unit via power switch has no impact. The only solution was to manually depress the reset button.

    All connections seemed fully seated and non intermittent during my original evaluation.

    This is the first time this has happened in my 6 years in this house.

    It'd probably be wise to call in a tech the next time this happens if I don't see any obvious root cause.

    I see it more likely that my kid toggled the auto/manual clicker and thus cranked the temp triggering lockout than sensors doing weird stuff. I'm inclined to think the sensors are pretty benign.

    @HVACNUT
    No errors were thrown on the control unit. As far as it was concerned, everything was fine. No hot water and no LEDs on the Ignition controller was the initial tell.

    There should have been 'heating err' for hi. Maybe it was nested in the menus?