How to tell if a Riello 40 F3 burner's pump is failing?

mrblint

We have a Buderus 115 + Riello in the basement. Is it possible to determine whether the pump on a Riello 40 F3 burner is beginning to fail by examining it visually, that is, not by measuring the efficiency of the burn or by listening to it?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Only by putting a pressure gauge on it, making sure it is spinning and making sure you have oil in the suction line from the tank

EdTheHeaterMan

Here is a video (starts at about 45 seconds) on Riello Fuel Pump testing. Not the best production quality but if you skip thru the minutia of installing the gauges, you can see that you will need special fittings to adapt a vacuum and pressure gauge to check pump operation. You can purchase the Riello brand gauges or you can purchase adaptors for gauges you may already have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8-7kyD7b28

Fuel pump portion of video ends about time stamp 6:50

No detail on how to actually do any testing by creating a vacuum by slowly closing down the suction (or feed pipe) from the tank to see if the pump can actually draw a vacuum. Riello fuel pumps are famous for poor vacuum on dry start up of a burner. When a new pump is installed, or the gear set becomes dry for any other reason, you want to charge the fuel pipe with oil and if possible, you will want to prime the pump gear set with some fuel to get the gears wet. Once the gears are wet, the pumps works great.

I had one customer that was on COD delivery (which means the customer needed to remember to call before the tank ran dry) and the tank was outside above ground next to the house. It was gravity fed to the basement from the bottom of the fuel tank. After many years of faithful operation, the tank developed problems with tank bottom deposits (TBD) Since there was no money to clean the tank or replace the tank, the oil company installed a top feed line with the draw pipe several inches from the bottom (above the TBD) ...Problem solved!?! ... but a new problem created

When the tank ran dry, They always had problems priming the fuel pump. The Riello pump did not have sufficient vacuum to draw the oil up and over the top of the tank. I needed to use a hand operated pull/push pump to charge the fuel line with oil. Once the oil line was charged with oil, the burner operated flawlessly. A 2 pipe fuel line system may have resolved the problem (but it would cause another) After 4 years of paying for service calls every time the tank ran dry, the customer elected to purchase a Tiger Loop and the problem was resolved. If there was time when the tank ran dry, there was enough fuel in the Tiger loop near pump tubing to keep the gear set wet and the pump was able to self prime after the fuel delivery, with only one reset of the primary control.

I wonder if you have a bad fuel pump of if the connecting fuel lines are the problem.

Perhaps you can describe your fuel pump issue for more specific help.

STEVEusaPA

Why don’t you just call a competent tech? They’ll have pressure and vacuum gauges and know how to use them. They’ll also have a replacement if needed, then they’ll be able to properly set the pressure, and do a combustion test.
And if it’s not the pump, they’ll be able to properly diagnose the problem and hav the parts needed.

HVACNUT

The only visual you'll get is if the seal is leaking. And making  sure the last tech put the pump cover on correctly, with the arrows toward the fuel line(s). Other than that it's all internal.
What's the issue? Is there an issue?

mrblint

Thanks for the replies. You see, I did call a "competent tech", at least the company he works for is well-respected in the metro area and the prices they charge suggest that they are confident in their reputation.

I was hearing a whining noise, almost a scraping and screeching at times, when the boiler first fired up after a call for heat. That noise would fade away after 5-10 seconds. When I set up the annual tuning service I asked them to bring along a pump in case it was bad. It was not the circulator. I put my ear right up against it. It was coming from inside the Riello burner.

The tech did the normal tune-up and told me he thought everything was fine. Then I played him the recording I made on my phone and when he fired up the unit again, he heard the whine I was talking about, but not the screech. The screech had gotten less audible over the course of the week.

I had to go upstairs to handle a call from work and when I came back down after about 20 minutes, he told me he thought the blower fan and the pump were both in need of replacement. He showed me a picture of the inside of the blower and said that the reddish-brown coloration suggested rusting of metal chips. (But to me it looked like the reddish color of the fuel oil.) When I asked him how he determined whether the pump was bad, he seemed to be taken aback and said "the same way as always with any equipment" or words to that effect. Since he mentioned nothing specific, l asked him if it was like bad bearings on a bicycle hub or pedals, where the spindle spins roughly or has a lot of play in it, and he nodded yes.

P.S. We do have a Tiger Loop. Ten years ago a novice tech burned out the Riello pump after having trouble priming it, so I got a Tiger Loop to avoid that problem.

Big Ed_4

The bearings in the motor drys out and will make that noise ....

SuperTech

I would also suspect that motor more than the oil pump. I replaced one sounding like that last year. It took a lot longer than replacing one on a Carlin or Beckett!

Damaged a pump while trying to prime it? Never heard of that happening. Why did he have problems? A Riello should always be gravity fed from the bottom of the tank, no lifting or overhead lines.

HVACNUT

It was probably just the motor. I replaced my own last week, after 20 years. It was definitely the noise. My wife sent me a recording. I told her what it was, I'll do it when I get home. And she came back with the usual, "Can that start a fire?" 
@SuperTech, I disconnect the electric and oil lines and take the whole burner to the van. It's a lot easier than looking like your kneeling towards Mecca. 

STEVEusaPA

HVACNUT said:

...she came back with the usual, "Can that start a fire?"...

LOL...I get that all the time. When we were remodeling I had temporary thermostat wires hanging...same response.

mrblint

The Riello burner on ours is at waist height because our Buderus boiler sits on top of the Buderus indirect hot water tank. That tank recently rusted out even though I had the sacrificial anode checked several times and replaced it a few years ago even though it had plenty of life remaining. The original installers did not use a dielectric coupling on the water tank and they also mismatched threads, British and NPT, if I recall correctly. It's been almost 15 years, and I wasn't paying close enough attention back then.

mrblint

Are the Riello motor bearings sealed or serviceable?

Big Ed_4

Normaly the bearing that dries out with 20 years of age is on the pump side . There is no grease fitting . You can buy a few extra years pulling the pump , cupping the pump hub with your hand to hold motor oil . Turn on the burner for a few seconds to let the oil soak into the bearing and it will quiet right down ...

STEVEusaPA

Big Ed_4 said:

Normaly the bearing that dries out with 20 years of age is on the pump side . There is no grease fitting . You can buy a few extra years pulling the pump , cupping the pump hub with your hand to hold motor oil . Turn on the burner for a few seconds to let the oil soak into the bearing and it will quiet right down ...

If you're pulling the pump, replace it. But you'll need to do a complete combustion test when your done, again the need for a competent tech. "Competent" means having the skill, tools and knowledge to do a proper job.

mrblint

I thought you might enjoy taking a gander at the back of the Buderus indirect water heater tank with the mismatched threads on the nipple.

HVACNUT

Buderus supplies the fittings. It's been a long time since I piped an LT tank, but I don't remember the threads being metric.  I think you mentioned that in another post.

mrblint

Has Buderus always supplied the fittings? Or did they learn in the field that they had better start supplying them? I remember the installers talking about needing to get a Tee.

mrblint

Should I be an irate customer?

The service organization quotes me a price for parts and labor to replace the Riello burner's pump and blower ($) and a higher price to replace the entire burner ($). I opt for the less expensive approach.

Two weeks later, on the day the service is supposed to occur, and about an hour later than they were supposed to have shown up, the tech calls me and says my model burner was discontinued and they could not get the pump and blower parts separately; they could only get a complete burner kit. The price would be $, not $. I reluctantly say OK, let's go ahead with the full burner replacement.

Tech arrives and proceeds to remove the old burner and we see a pile of reddish powdery crud in the bottom of the boiler. He prepares to vacuum it out. This is two weeks after they did the annual service for $, BTW. The air begins to fill with red dust so I offer him my HEPA shop vac and it handles the task well.

There are two parts I don't need in the kit box, a Grundfos circulator and a Hydrovel Hydrostat, but I say to the tech that at least I can try to sell these on eBay and lower my out-of-pocket. He says no, sorry, we didn't charge you for those. He needs to take them back to the parts department.

Now, I see that on the web these Riello burner kits are available for about $1000 including shipping, so that means they've charged me approximately $ for two hours of labor and $ for the kit. Or however you might want to split the cost. And they have taken back two fairly expensive parts from the kit. Not to mention the $ a couple of weeks earlier for an annual service that did not include cleaning out the inside of the boiler.

I feel like I've been jerked around some and ripped off. But I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@mrblint

I would love to comment but it's against forum rules to post prices or discuss pricing.

Please remove your prices.

I will say after paying to have the boiler cleaned the soot should have been removed during your cleaning in my opinion.

as far a parts goes everything is expensive now and Riello gives nothing away

mrblint

I do know that things are expensive now but I am not focusing on the dollar cost itself, but on whether I should have been allowed to keep the parts from the kit. I was told they had to buy the kit because they couldn't get individual parts (pump and blower).

mrblint

A followup question. Is it common in the industry for manufacturers to bundle additional unrelated parts with their replacement burners? Why is Riello including a circulator and a hydrostat with the replacement burner kit?

HVACNUT

mrblint said:

A followup question. Is it common in the industry for manufacturers to bundle additional unrelated parts with their replacement burners? Why is Riello including a circulator and a hydrostat with the replacement burner kit?

They're not. You should've been able to get the fuel pump only, or fan, or motor separately. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Agree with @HVACNUT , I never herd of parts bundling unless it was some sort of kit

mrblint

When I go to a particular parts supply website and key in my burner's model, it shows as discontinued in 2015 and there's a link to the replacement part. When you go to the replacement part, it shows as discontinued in 2016 and there's a link to the replacement. When you go to the replacement's replacement, it's a kit that includes a circulator and hydrostat. I've been trying to reach Riello support for a few days and always get voicemail and haven't gotten a callback.

rick in Alaska

The Riello pump rarely goes out. I think I have replaced 2. That burner is virtually bulletproof, but, the motor is the weak link. I don't know why, but the sealed bearing in the motor end is what goes out on that burner, and causes the growling. All they should have done was replace the motor and you would have been good to go. Yes, the motor can be bought separately. And, if you are mechanically able to, the bearing can be replaced. I have not done this because it costs too much to the homeowner for my time, but you could .
That repair kit sounds like the KP kit they sell when you first buy the boiler, which includes all the pieces to hook it up. Definitely something you did not need.
Hopefully they left you the old burner so you can use it for any future parts.
Rick