Peerless Heater delayed ignition

PeerlessBob

Greetings, I have an old Peerless Wall Mount heater exactly like the image PeerlessDan posted in April 2021 and have the same delayed ignition problem he described with a small explosion when it ignites. A technician and my propane gas provider found no leaks and the WC test is at 12.5.
Upon cleaning the furnace and looking for any leaks, etc. I see a port/orifice in front of the pilot light that I am not sure if that should be there. Perhaps there was another fitting there that blew out with the minor explosion. Can anyone verify if there should be another fitting there? I cannot find a schematic anywhere.
Sincere thanks for any guidance. and God Bless! Bob

mattmia2

Is there more than one tube going to the pilot assembly? Some pictures further back of the gas chain would help. Has anything been replaced recently?

PeerlessBob

Thanks for the reply. The only tubes involved are the gas feed to the pilot light and the thermocouple. Nothing has been changed. I sure wish I had looked this furnace over before experiencing any problems so I knew what it should look like. That's another lesson learned I suppose. I wonder why there are no schematics to be found on-line. God Bless! PeerlessBob

mattmia2

Is that a power burner, does it have a blower that supplies combustion air rather than just through natural draft?

HVACNUT

That looks like cast iron. It's a wall hung? What model?

PeerlessBob

Hi, HVACNUT, I cannot find any model number anywhere on this unit. It looks like this image

I agree it looks like cast iron and I do not see any threads in the port I showed in the earlier image. This furnace has given me years of good service until this winter. I can still light it and it seems to be running efficiently while running but, due to the loud ignition and flash back that I have witnessed, I cannot let it run with any peace of mind while I am not physically present in the garage. The unit is actually hung from the ceiling and the image included here is from the internet.
Any guidance? I really appreciate your time and efforts more than I can express. God Bless! PeerlessBob

mattmia2

Oh, it is a unit heater. you can try cleaning the burner and the pilot burner. if that doesn't fix it you need someone that knows what they are doing to check draft and combustion.

mattmia2

make sure you have a working co detector and the vent isn't blocked with snow or ice on the roof too.

you really should have someone look it over to make sure everything else is safe regardless since i suspect from your question no one has looked at it in decades.

PeerlessBob

mattmia2 said:

Is that a power burner, does it have a blower that supplies combustion air rather than just through natural draft?

Hi, mattmia2, Sorry I missed your post earlier. There isn't a blower to aid combustion and everything is surprisingly clean. I'm not sure if any of the technicians around here have been on the job long enough to know much about this particular unit. I hate to pay a huge service call for them to come out and say,
"I can't help. You should probably replace it" and then try to sell me one of their units.
Thanks very much for your advice, your time, and your efforts on my behalf. God Bless!

HVACNUT

PeerlessBob said: I'm not sure if any of the technicians around here have been on the job long enough to know much about this particular unit. I hate to pay a huge service call for them to come out and say, "I can't help. You should probably replace it" and then try to sell me one of their units. 

That unit is about as simple as it gets. 
The pilot must encompass the main burner ports, and there must  be smooth crossover of the burners. 
It looks clean but the orifices and inside the burners might need attention. 
LP gas so the gas valve is probably set to 10" wc manifold. Why wasn't that checked?
Draft test as mentioned.

wmgeorge

Have you tried removing the burners and cleaning, and those cross over tubes sometimes get little spider nests or I have seen them packed with flys, dead ones.

EdTheHeaterMan

@PeerlessBob , it looks like @PeerlessBob has a heater just like yours
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/184002/peerless-gas-wall-mounted-garage-heater
Is this an issue on the same heater? In the same garage?

EdTheHeaterMan

From what I can find, Peerless was a heater company in Kentucky from the late 1800s and was purchased by the Dover Company in 1955. It was subsequently sold in 1977. It is quite possible that your heater was made in the 1970s. Not a lot of information on that model, however it is a very simple atmospheric gas burner at the bottom of a steel heat exchanger. This was a very popular way to build heaters in the 1970s thru the 1980s.

Any HVAC company with a basic knowledge of gas appliance combustion should be able to get it operating properly. Most likely needs a good vacuum cleaning of the burners and perhaps a pilot orifice/burner cleaning or replacement. A standard aftermarket pilot burner may be retrofitted if needed.

rick in Alaska

That is a pretty bad picture, but is that a crack you are showing? That would explain a lot if it were.
Rick

PeerlessBob

HVACNUT said:

PeerlessBob said: I'm not sure if any of the technicians around here have been on the job long enough to know much about this particular unit. I hate to pay a huge service call for them to come out and say,
"I can't help. You should probably replace it" and then try to sell me one of their units. 

That unit is about as simple as it gets. 
The pilot must encompass the main burner ports, and there must  be smooth crossover of the burners. 
It looks clean but the orifices and inside the burners might need attention. 
LP gas so the gas valve is probably set to 10" wc manifold. Why wasn't that checked?
Draft test as mentioned.

HVACNUT, I did mention in an earlier post that it checked at 12.5" WC.
Thanks for trying to help and God Bless!

PeerlessBob

rick in Alaska said:

That is a pretty bad picture, but is that a crack you are showing? That would explain a lot if it were.
Rick

Hi, rick in alaska,
No, there is no crack but, there is an opening in front of the pilot light that makes no sense to me. I don't know if there was supposed to be a fitting of some sort there. Sorry for the poor picture but, it was taken through the access to light the pilot light.
God Bless! Bob

PeerlessBob

EdTheHeaterMan said:

@PeerlessBob , it looks like @PeerlessBob has a heater just like yours
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/184002/peerless-gas-wall-mounted-garage-heater
Is this an issue on the same heater? In the same garage?

Hi, @EdTheHeaterMan ,
I think you were probably referring to PeerlessDan.
Yes, it appears we have the same unit and I used the photo he had posted because someone asked for a photo of the whole unit instead of the area that I think may be the problem.
A schematic would answer my question definatively if there is supposed to be another orifice in from of the pilot light but, I can find no such schematic, diagram, or manual.
It has been checked by a HVAC tech and by the gas company for leaks but, it was not vacuum cleaned.
I suppose I may have to pay for another service call and labor unless I can determine what all has to be removed to clean it myself.
If you have any other suggestions I'd be appreciative for your help and insight.
God Bless!

PeerlessBob

wmgeorge said:

Have you tried removing the burners and cleaning, and those cross over tubes sometimes get little spider nests or I have seen them packed with flys, dead ones.

Hi, wmgeorge, I have not tried to remove anything but, it appears I'll either have to educate myself on how to do that or pay another HVAC tech. Any insight is appreciated. God Bless!

wmgeorge

PeerlessBob said:

wmgeorge said:

Have you tried removing the burners and cleaning, and those cross over tubes sometimes get little spider nests or I have seen them packed with flys, dead ones.

Hi, wmgeorge, I have not tried to remove anything but, it appears I'll either have to educate myself on how to do that or pay another HVAC tech. Any insight is appreciated. God Bless!

Sometimes with the gas and power shut off, you can get your hand inside the burner area and push in and lift out the burners one at a time. Blow them out with compressed air and the crossover tubes also. The pilot must be done also, its a take apart and do not make the orifice larger but clean and blow out. I use a little spray penetrating oil on all the fittings.

What I do on new jobs, is mark and take pictures to make sure it gets back together the right way.

mattmia2

I wouldn't recommend the penetrating oil unless you are dealing with a corroded fastener, it will leave an oily film that will attract dirt.

wmgeorge

Gee I have done it the way I described   for over 50 years on hundreds of jobs, never an issue?  Note I said small amount.

EdTheHeaterMan

Sorry I cant put 45 years experience in a paragraph or two. I don't recommend DIY repairs on anything that has to do with fire. Not understanding the reason for all the safety controls, limit switches and how combustion theory of each individual component in the equipment is designed and utilized, can make for a dangerous condition.

This video is 2 different unit heaters that need repairs. Your type unit heater (different brand) starts at time stamp 3:13 and ends at 6:47. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-BLsBj2GX4 This technician obviously has experience by the way he is checking the safe operation of the flame failure safety in the standing pilot design, check fan operation, also tested the main burner limit and observe for heat exchanger failure. I would be comfortable giving this guy help because he understands the value of maintenance and safe operation of HVAC equipment.

wmgeorge

He has had a Tech out who failed to clean the burners and I assume also the pilot was not checked nor cleaned. Delayed ignition usually means dirty burners or cross overs. Or in some cases poor pilot location or size of pilot flame. If that does not do it yes he needs a Tech again to check gas pressures and the valve operation.

PeerlessBob

Thanks @EdTheHeaterMan for your time and efforts and thanks to @wmgeorge for pointing out that I DID have an HVAC tech AND my propane provider both out here before seeking help on this site. God Bless!