Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

Riello/Buderus

gregchurchill
gregchurchill Member Posts: 7
Weird one. Homeowner has been servicing his own boiler for 15 yrs. Calls me. Riello BF3/Buderus G115, four section, direct vent, Logamatic. Fires quick and then drops out but doesn't locks out. Keeps trying. Used a Firedragon tool which installs to bleed pumps and I can make it work with a nice fire. Have tried eyes, pump pressures, nozzles, blast tube adjustments (Tech answers). They say there's a problem with this set up because of what they are doing with oil. BTW, they haven't responded to my calls in the last day. Ohms for the oil valve are about 1450 which is within the 1350 plus or minus 10%. Please help if you have seen this. 30 year tech consider myself above average. TY

Comments

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,546
    Not that this is the issue but the G115/4 specs an F5 Riello, .65 60° A/B at 190 psi with the long air tube. I'm assuming the BF3 has the standard air tube. 


  • gregchurchill
    gregchurchill Member Posts: 7
    right nozzle, 180 psi, standard tube, BF3 not 5
  • Mikem2022
    Mikem2022 Member Posts: 6
    Sounds strangely similar to my past 2 years of issues, same equipment Riello 40 F3 on a Buderus G115/4. The manual states approx 12 seconds of purge followed by oil pump and light off with 5 seconds to shut down if no flame seen by sensor. My burner is doing 1 or 2 light offs with instant shutdowns in that 12- seconds and the purge fan keeps running like nothing happened and then lights in the last time frame or just shuts down with a burner error and requires a manual reset. My service provider has replaced almost every part, Riello Nozzles – even played with different ones, Riello Fuel Pump Screen, Riello Primary Control, Riello Coil, Riello fuel pump, Riello Flame Sensor, Cleaned and adjusted electrodes. I have lots of service calls and no resolution. The light offs seem to be completely random and service tech discussions with Riello corrected air intake setting but light offs are still happening... It was so many years of reliability and now during the winter shut-downs are not good with -10 outside. Pretty frustrated on no resolution.
  • Jon_blaney
    Jon_blaney Member Posts: 268
    Have you tried firing it from an alternate oil source ie oil in a 5 gal can?
  • Mikem2022
    Mikem2022 Member Posts: 6
    As the homeowner I have not attempted any solutions on my own as it is not in my expertise. Because this issue tends to be intermittent getting it to replicate has become difficult, so they have not attempted in a separate fuel container.
    archibald tuttle
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,877
    Is the system set up direct vent ? Out the wall not using a chimney...
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
  • Mikem2022
    Mikem2022 Member Posts: 6
    The system is connected to a double walled pipe up a chimney chase above the roof line. Service tech did a draft check and the number was good. The system was put into operation in Dec 2003 and ran reliable for 15 plus years without any repairs. What is troubling is why it lights off before the purge sequence/ignition phase as defined in the manual and keeps running and it is unclear when the actual hard lockout occurs. I believe it is after the real light off sequence but being random makes it hard to document.
  • Mikem2022
    Mikem2022 Member Posts: 6
    For those that might read this - tech back again this morning and found and did the following:
    1) Found the coil installed 90 degrees clockwise compared to his, put coil to match his and seems to match indented parts list picture as well as tab on coil seems to hold coil in rotation.
    2) He adjusted the air to be closed further and dropped the numbers some more
    a. O2 – 3.9%
    b. CO2 – 12.5%
    c. CO - 8 ppm
    d. EA – 23%
    3) Replaced the flame sensor -
    4) Found the Controller sub-base screws pretty loose where they electrically connect to the primary and tightened them up.
    So, let's see what happens over the next few days/weeks.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,546
    Replaced the flame sensor? You mean cad cell eye?
    Those numbers aren't terrible as long as its firing at 0 smoke and correct draft. I like between 4.5%-6.5% oxygen and 25% excess air. I guess we'll see. Do you know what the oxygen and excess air was before adjustments?
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,900
    The adjustments look like it could be pushing it towards a smoke/soot problem. Time will tell. You need some marging for cat hair and dust etc.
  • Mikem2022
    Mikem2022 Member Posts: 6
    Sorry I used the exact wording from the Riello Indented Parts list, but yes, the CAD Cell eye. Ironically these were the numbers a Riello Service rep was driving towards. The service tech had them a little higher on Monday with a. O2 – 4.9% b. CO2 – 11.8% c. CO - 7 ppm d. EA – 30% but he thought to go lower since his home burner was lower than these numbers and the Riello Rep was saying O2 near 4. He came back today as the burner still was doing the original problem of double ignition before the timing chart in the manual. Btw the original numbers prior to Monday were much higher as the manual air shutter was almost at the 5-position mark. So tonight, I am keen eared each time the burner lights to see if I get the dual light-offs or ultimately lock outs. Appreciate all the comments... soaking it all in!!
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,877
    My thoughts and concern about the BF control and the outside air intake .
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
    rick in Alaska
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 2,983
    This sounds like @Mikem2022 has hijacked this discussion. I'm wondering if @gregchurchill ever solved his problem?
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
    STEVEusaPASuperTech
  • PatN
    PatN Member Posts: 7
    Greg, it may be the Riello valve stem PART # 3006925. The piston sometimes gets gummed up and causes the symptoms you describe. I have cleaned them with much success.

  • Mikem2022
    Mikem2022 Member Posts: 6
    Greg & Guys sorry for the Hi-Jack but felt the original problem was similar to mine. I have been running fine so far with the biggest NEW change for the firing prior to normal sequence seems to be the Controller Sub Base electrical connection screws being tightened. Wondering if the connections were jumping around creating electrical pulses mimicking a fire signal to only shut down immediately but not stop the motor from its normal cycle.
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 872
    @gregchurchill in order to establish if the original condition is similar to @mikem2022: when you say it "fires quick" do you mean before the end of the purge timing.

    that is friggin weird symptom. I also wonder about loose wire connections perceived in mike's situation. OF course several things were changed at the same time Is there more vibration or thermal changed around the connections. I've literally never seen connections loosen. Hard to imagine that if they were at all loose from the get go that the problem wouldn't have shown up earlier.

    that said, the stangest non-riello lockout/dropout problems i've had have been connection related (plug harnesses not screw terminals).

    got 10 years to go before anything I've put in ages out to the 15 year itch but this is really perplexing and it would be good to have a definitive answer although so many things getting tweaked at once it can be difficult to tell. I'm going to ask the guys at Riello (assuming they

    The thing is, all this monkeying with the combustion doesn't seem to have anything to do with the early firing on the control (although the pumps are notoriously finnicky. i've got one in an up and over situation which really is gravity or siphon once the line is full but I just told the guy never let your oil tank go below half. I've got a tee for priming out of a 5 gallon can and then i swing the valves part way. And it worked and he keeps it topped off but my solution was going to be put a low pressure automotive style fuel pump on the tank for priming. But i digress. that's a true hijack but i'm just recalling difficulties i've had, none of which look like the present problem-but attention to fine points of combustion seem more like trying to create a slightly brighter or different color temperature flame to better make the cad cell? ditto @patm , what does the piston do. I want to understand these idiosyncracies but I don't see how it could be associated with firing during the purge)

    so i'm going to be walking the aisles in vegas shortly and it occurs to me that if I were the guys at riello I would want to try to duplicate this problem and I might try to benchtest an equivalent unit with some loose screw terminals. i am unsure how loose terminals could screw with the timing logic but ghosts in digital machines are not that uncommon.

    the scary thing (in terms of callbacks) is that just replacing the control wouldn't have dealt with any possible problem on the subbase or its contacts and i've seen that problem with other components where the logic of trying a different control is defeated by idiosyncracies in the mount. maybe we need OBD 2 on these things. Actually, a pump pressure sensor would help and the cad is already there, you just need the readouts. how bout an O2 sensor which could actually be a flame sensor . . . but probably you don't get a stable read for a 5 second lock out.

    how come they don't use flame rods with oil but that is virtually all they use with gas? does soot buildup screw with performance?

    nough questions there?

    brian
    SuperTech
  • BobRoss
    BobRoss Member Posts: 5
    Mikem2022 said:

    Greg & Guys sorry for the Hi-Jack but felt the original problem was similar to mine. I have been running fine so far with the biggest NEW change for the firing prior to normal sequence seems to be the Controller Sub Base electrical connection screws being tightened. Wondering if the connections were jumping around creating electrical pulses mimicking a fire signal to only shut down immediately but not stop the motor from its normal cycle.

    the ~ symbol means about, not exact. Trial for ignition in ~12 sec.

    Start with the basics. Do you have clogged fuel filter or strainer? Whats the fuel line vacuum at the pump?
  • BobRoss
    BobRoss Member Posts: 5
    edited May 14

    Weird one. Homeowner has been servicing his own boiler for 15 yrs. Calls me. Riello BF3/Buderus G115, four section, direct vent, Logamatic. Fires quick and then drops out but doesn't locks out. Keeps trying. Used a Firedragon tool which installs to bleed pumps and I can make it work with a nice fire. Have tried eyes, pump pressures, nozzles, blast tube adjustments (Tech answers). They say there's a problem with this set up because of what they are doing with oil. BTW, they haven't responded to my calls in the last day. Ohms for the oil valve are about 1450 which is within the 1350 plus or minus 10%. Please help if you have seen this. 30 year tech consider myself above average. TY

    If you truely checked everything. I even mean the fuel line vacuum from the pump. Its either a failed fuel pump or the .60 60 solid nozzle is blowing out.

    Change the nozzle to a .60 70W and use a good Combustion analyzer thats actually calibrated. like the C162 UEI. I have a preference for 11-11.5 % CO2 zero smoke with riellos. take the reading directly behind boiler
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,671
    Could simply be too much combustion air and/or too much draft over the fire. Or a weak coil/sticking oil valve.
    steve
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,546
    Riello specs a .60 60°A hollow for the G115/4 with a B solid as an alternate. 
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,353
    My thoughts are two things.
    The BF3 is usually for horizontal vent setups, which usually consists of a concentric vent. The Riello has a very quick shutdown in the result of a bad flame, and can do it if it is windy out and the air intake of the vent is pulling in the exhaust. That's when you get the flame on, flame off, flame on sequence. One of my customers modified his exhaust termination to extend it out farther and solved his problems.
    The other thought I have is that the BF3 has a different purge board installed below the primary , and I have had them fail, so you might look in to that. Maybe just a bad board.
    Rick
    BobRoss
  • BDR529
    BDR529 Member Posts: 215
    New fuels do not like to be compressed like the old #2. 190ish PSI they can be tempermental. Go back to the old settings from early 2000's

    65x60W Delavan at 145PSI, air gate at 5.50, Head at 3 -DIRECT VENT G115/28

    65x60B Delavan at 145PSI, air gate at 2.25, Head st 0 -CHIMNEY VENT G115/28
  • BobRoss
    BobRoss Member Posts: 5
    HVACNUT said:
    Riello specs a .60 60°A hollow for the G115/4 with a B solid as an alternate. 
    incorrect  buderus packages the G115/4 with a  .75 60 solid @ 145 psi 

    the G115/3 has F3 with .60 60 solid @145psi

    these a buderus factory settings.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,671
    BDR529 said:

    New fuels do not like to be compressed like the old #2. 190ish PSI they can be tempermental.

    Where did you get this info?

    steve
  • GermanPlumber
    GermanPlumber Member Posts: 45
    I would check the vacuum of the oil pump also and rebuild the supply system into a one pipe system with  air separation e.g. Tiger Loop . How is the ignition? I used to love oil combustion but they pretty much killed it here in Germany and move towards heatpumps in combination with PV and maybe a small wall hung boiler.  Think often about my 12 years Heating and Plumbing in the US . Greetings to all of you ! Mario 
    STEVEusaPA
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,546
    BobRoss said:
    HVACNUT said:
    Riello specs a .60 60°A hollow for the G115/4 with a B solid as an alternate. 
    incorrect  buderus packages the G115/4 with a  .75 60 solid @ 145 psi 

    the G115/3 has F3 with .60 60 solid @145psi

    these a buderus factory settings.
    Did they change their specs?
  • BDR529
    BDR529 Member Posts: 215

    BDR529 said:

    New fuels do not like to be compressed like the old #2. 190ish PSI they can be tempermental.

    Where did you get this info?

    The Rep. And experiance.