Peerless Purefire PF-140-N-REV2 - Consistent, recurring Lockout Error A01 ?

elansp

Hello- We had this boiler installed in a new construction ~ 3000 sq ft home 2 years ago, Northern New Jersey. Natural gas, supplies 2 heating zones and 1 DHW 120 gallon water tank. 1st year, no issues.

Had boiler cleaned and serviced after 1st year as received Lockout Error A01. Replaced ignitor and flame sensor, heat exchanger cleaned. We have had consistent A01 lockout errors ever since. New ignitors and flame sensors have not resolved the issue. Distance of sensors to burner confirmed. Combustion analysis performed and everything is within range. Supply/return, hi limit sensors and swirl plate replaced as precautionary. Exhaust and inlet vents installed per spec, sloped 1/4" towards boiler, horizontal venting for both totaling approximately 60 feet per run. Condensation drains (both from heat exchanger and flue) are both clean and function as per normal. Observed no restrictions to venting flue gas and condensate dripping occurred as per normal. Both terminate as per manual - exhaust spaced away from intake and extended well past intake.

As combustion is within spec and no restrictions on airflow (boiler has been run with cover off and with it on) we are at a loss why ignitors and sensors are continuously fouling (sometimes within a day sometimes within a few days). Boiler will re-fire after ignitor/sensor are removed, cleaned (no real visible soot) and unit is reset. No other errors received.

One thought that was discussed was as venting goes through garage which isn't heated, could there be too much condensate flowing backwards to fowl the combustion chamber? These units have separate condensate drain hoses - 1 removes condensate from the combustion chamber and the other from the flue. As there were no lockouts during year one, this seems unlikely to me.

Looking for any insight please. Thanks in advance.

JUGHNE

What does the boiler book translate A01 to, other than it stops and locks out.
"Flame failure"...."Failure to light"....etc.?

elansp

Hi JUGHNE - Ignition Error. I just recleaned ignition and flame sensor with scotch bright pad, hit reset button, and it ignited. This is what I've essentially been doing during the past heating season...

Observe flame but then it drops. Put my multimeter in series and its registering below 3.1milliamps which is the limit for the control to stay running.

JUGHNE

Does the flame sensor produce the required microamps needed for the board to recognize the flame ?

There is a minimum number needed. Book should tell you. Read out screen (if there is one..IDK) may show you flame current when it is running.

elansp

When it's cleaned it does and burner stays lit so no ignition issue. After some time, after lockout it's below the required 3.1 milliamps. Minimum for running is 2.8 and maximum is 10.

JUGHNE

I have never seen one of these.
But one of the first ModCon boilers produced/sold in this country was a Munchkin by HTP.
Some problems like you have.
The solution was to gouge out a little door insulation so the FS would not be contact with the insulation.
As the unit ran and produced condensation the insulation would get damp and the flame current would be lost.

I doubt if that is your problem, it seems everyone should have learned things from Munchkins by now.

As your unit runs can you see the amps slowly dropping?

elansp

The unit doesn't have the ability to continuously display milliamps. Only shows you standard stuff - temperatures, etc. I've seen Youtube videos of Munchkin boilers - this has no obvious insulation around the heat exchanger. The condensation is generated wholly within the flue once it vertically leaves the boiler.

JUGHNE

So how did you obtain the above numbers?

Even the early Munchkins had that read out available....not much more than that though.

elansp

Hooked up multimeter in series to get the readings on ignition. All levels are stated in the manual.

wesPA

The company I work for has a number of these that we have installed and serviced; overall they have been reliable and have worked well. Verifying proper combustion and venting is the fist step, sounds like you have done that.
A few things come to mind:
-Verify all crimp and screw connections are tight
-Verify the 120v supply has a good, intact equipment ground

Make sure the ignitor and flame sensors are at their proper locations and wires are not switched! I had this once on a service call. The technician had just did the PM, and had crossed the wires by accident.  Somehow, the unit would light , but would not run very long before locking out on ignition failure 

clammy

What where you combustion numbers ? Even though no issues where stated the first year ,is there any rumbling on low fire ? I had this issue w 2 purifire 80 combustion numbers where within specs but still has issues , lowered my co reading replaced ignitor and spark cable and sensor and cleaned the unit within a inch of its life ,cleaned burner mounted plate and really have had no recalls . I believe that when set to the upper perimeters in some cases ( when unit is running low fire a lot) that the flame sensor gets a build up and locks out . I personally don’t use a scotch Britt pads I believe they may leave some type of residue I use a piece of scratch cloth to clean . When replacing them gets new gaskets . When this unit is being cleaned is the target wall being removed and is every pass on the heat exchanger being cleaned ,is the drain being removed from the unit and water flow observed ? A lot of service people really don’t take the time to properly clean these water tube boilers and flush them w water either using a garden hose and spray head or a bug type pump sprayer , What type of heat emitters are being used and is this boiler being use for a hi temp baseboard system or a low temp which would be more fitting for this type of heating system . Has anyone checked your inlet gas pressure and made sure there’s no large pressure drop causing a flame failure code . I only install mod cons when the system is designed for low to mid temps max say 160 at design not because no one wants to pay for a chimney and chose a wall hung to save on chimney construction costs . At 3000 sg ft and a 140000 btu input but let’s say 120 output that comes out to about 40 btu per sq ft that’s a lot of heat being I heat my small 1200 sq ft home built in the 50 s w about 18 btu s per sq ft and a similar type boiler .
I personally do not do many mod con any more , only if low temp systems where I know they will shine and never over size and figure what the smallest load is and design the system so you limit the short cycling which wastes Energy and prematurely cycles the boiler which is no good .
I see a lot of poorly installed and maintained wall hung systems the one common thread is usually not much thought goes into the whole process espically on new construction where what’s not seen does not count in the grand scheme until there issues then it’s a issue . Has your contractor contacted tech services and asked there advice or are they just winging it
Peace and good luck clammy

elansp

wesPA - Thanks for the response. All of these are confirmed - no issues.

elansp

Hi clammy - thanks for your detailed response. Unit supports forced hot air heating.

I'm located in Glen Rock. Interested in travelling a few towns over?

Perhaps the cleaning the HVAC rep performed after year 1 wasn't sufficient although I remember he removed all coffee grounds and cleaned bottom of heat exchanger with garden sprayer filled with chemical so no issues draining. I did recently try to clean myself and I even removed target wall - used CLR spray as per manual and there definitely is no drainage issues at bottom of heat exchanger - I flushed out with water and observed no issues with drainage as drain tubes are both clear plastic. There are no "coffee grounds" within the exchanger - only after that 1st year when of course I didn't realize these things should be maintained annually. When I recently tried to replace ignitor and sensor the kit comes with gaskets so they were replaced.

If gas can't escape the heat exchanger quickly enough perhaps the upper part of heat exchanger needs a deep clean? We have hard water in town so a water softener has been installed since day 1 so perhaps the extra salt in the water causes more of a buildup within the upper part of the exchanger. Logic would tell me that if fumes cant escape heat exchanger fast enough this is what would cause premature fouling but since its cold out now there appears to be no issues with drainage or flow of exhaust gas as its easily observable. Perhaps lengthening post purge cycle from 30 seconds would help?

Peerless rep had come out towards early spring and observed all measurements, etc. performed by HVAC staff. They got on the phone with a Peerless tech and only thing they came up with was to install a Tee right before the horizontal flue turns vertical before going back to boiler as excess condensate was a possible cause to drain condensate away from boiler and create a separate drain - but no where in the manual is this ever identified which is why I'm not sure this is a real cause. Everything else checked out - gas pressure, etc. Tech didn't initially record levels. PSE&G confirmed no issues at meter.

Daveinscranton

Maybe a bad ground connection on the sensor? That type of thing will drive you nuts.  Would give you low readings with your meter.  Maybe and additional ground wire would be something to try.

Best wishes 

clammy

Give me a e mail at rdeuza@aol.com w your contact number and I will give you a call , have a couple of other questions and see if I can make it over and possible clean it and get to the root of the issue and resolve it peace and good luck clammy

elansp

Clammy - thanks for the response and reach out. Wanted to provide current update. Tech came over and put in a Tee yesterday right after the vertical exhaust turns 90 degrees to flow horizontally. The unit ran for almost 20 hours, filled up ~ half of a large pail of water with condensate and then promptly cut out with the same ignition error and required recleaning. Tech coming back over today/tomorrow to work through Peerless support. Tech mentioned that Peerless support may have him adjust air/gas mixture a bit.

Derheatmeister

Can you post some pictures of the Exhaust Vent and combustion air termination..
These issues sound like EGR (Exhaust gas recirculation)..

elansp

Derheatmister - agree or condensate getting burned within heat exchanger. Re terminations outside the house, facing the house the exhaust is over a foot to the right of the intake and goes an additional 12+" past where the intake terminates. No real noticeable damage to swirl plate thought which would indicate recirculation (along with combustion measurements possibly out of line)

Derheatmeister

Allthough the venting is probably installed as per manufacturer installation instructions IMO 12" is too close and we see issues with this quite frequently..
You may not see/note the EGR when it is happening !
Generally people do not "hang out" at the vent termination to see if it is regurgitating on it's self...
Venting into prevailing winds is often one of the issues..
Frequent cleaning of the Flame sensing rods is one of the first issues that surfaces.
Generally this is followed by corrosion of Gasvalves,Electronics,wiring and radial fans.
Can you put a Low level CO detector in the Boilers Cabinet and leave it for a week ?

HVACNUT

I haven't seen any gas pressure readings. That would be a good next step.

elansp

Derheatmeister - I've run the unit with the cover off and cover on. It would therefore pull in "fresh" air within the home.

HVACNUT - Gas pressure readings were performed a year ago with no issues noted however I'm sure Peerless tech will have HVAC rep redo that along with reperforming combustion analysis....we shall see what else they suggest.

Derheatmeister

elansp said:

Derheatmeister - I've run the unit with the cover off and cover on. It would therefore pull in "fresh" air within the home.

HVACNUT - Gas pressure readings were performed a year ago with no issues noted however I'm sure Peerless tech will have HVAC rep redo that along with reperforming combustion analysis....we shall see what else they suggest.

If you are taking combustion air from the home do you have any solvents such as : Cleaning solutions.Chlorine,Paints,laundry detergents,stored nearby..Indoor hottub,Dust from wood working projects..If you do have chemicals nearby it can cause all kinds of issues..
A former mentor of mine told me that chlorine turns into Hydrocloric acid when it passes tru the HX..


Last years Gas pressure readings are not current readings and lots of things can happen in a year..Gas pressure is one of the first things they should check...
Sometimes we see hung up gas regulators here in the high country especially when we hit single digits like last week (-10F)...Then again N. Jersey does'nt see these low temps very often...
What Exit are you on? ....I used to live in Closter,NJ 07624..

elansp

Derheatmeister - good 'ol GSP. No solvents around or in the general area. Brine tank for water softener 2 feet away containing salt. Its covered.

When this started a few years ago we were having our wood floors redone with oil based polyeurathane but it was on a different level of the house and nothing was stored in basement where the unit is located.

Wondering if it makes any sense to take off where the exhaust flue mounts to the unit to see how things look from the top of the heat exchanger....

JUGHNE

Don't take gas pressures for granted.

I spun my wheels one night on a Modcon boiler that would throw up the similar code you are seeing.
Check all the usual suspects.

Finally check NG......zero pressure.

Crack the pipe union open.....nothing.
Outside regulator had been iced over from sleet storm.
Vent covered with 1/4" ice....chip & scrape...thump the reg with screwdriver handle and finally the diaphragm moved.

Of course this is not your problem, but we assume NG is just always there.

In your case you may start out good but the regulator could be slowly falling on it's face and recovers when you reset it. Good to go again for awhile.

In your situation NG pressure needs to be monitored for some time, other than just the quick spot check, IMO.

jimmythegreek

What size is the flue pipe and does it stay one size all the way?  Need to check gas pressures asap stand there and see what his manometer reads and note them down

wesPA

In response to an earlier post, I believe the only way to view flame current on the display on the Purefire is in the installer mode, under the status menu. You can also run the unit manually on low and high fire. I like to do a combustion test while on high and low fire, and note the flame current during each. I'm sure your contractor will do this with Peerless technical support. Hopefully you can find a resolution to this issue soon!

elansp

Hi all-

-3" PVC diameter throughout on both intake and exhaust
-Hi/lo combustion tests checked out perfect within allowable ranges
- Exhaust and intake are located approximately 15 feet above ground

If NG issue, the unit automatically attempts to restart after 1 hour if locked out. Unit would then restart if no issues with gas pressure at that point (or with ignitor)...

Re current flame, I went into the installer menu and flame signal is currently at approx 7-7.5milliamps while running.

elansp

** UPDATED ** - I wanted to provide an update to all so that anyone else in this situation can possibly learn from the efforts... Thank you all for your assistance....

Peerless Tech support came over today. Confirmed everything is perfect - exhaust and intake, heat exchanger clean, gas pressure fine, combustion fine and non recirculation issues. Peerless home office had him adjust the gas valve (even though all settings were previously within acceptable range as per manual) : CO2 low fire at lower end of range and at high fire its now at upper end of range. Excess air at high fire now close to lower end of range and at low fire it's closer to the high end of the range.

We've had several days below freezing and previously the unit would lockout. It hasn't locked out since.

EdNJ

Hi Elansp, I have the similar every day lockout issues. I'm in Oradell, NJ. Do you know anyone that knows how to adjust the gas valve ? Thanks