Old time oil burner

Yesterday

I need to rebuild or replace an oil burner motor ( Ohio Electric MFG Co) model 985X4260AS. Any old inventory out there? How about replacing the burner unit. I see Beckett has some issues with their products. What are the possibilities? This one needs a spin to start but will continue to run. It doesn't have an external start capacitor.

Steamhead

What model burner is this motor installed on? What model boiler is the burner installed in? Post some pictures of both, please.

Nothing wrong with Beckett burners- there are millions out there and when installed and set up properly they're fine.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Probably a bad centrifugal switch in it. Motor shop could probably get it going but is it worth it? Probably not

EdTheHeaterMan

Yesterday said:

I need to rebuild or replace an oil burner motor ( Ohio Electric MFG Co) model 985X4260AS. Any old inventory out there? How about replacing the burner unit. I see Beckett has some issues with their products. What are the possibilities? This one needs a spin to start but will continue to run. It doesn't have an external start capacitor.

Are you looking to get a heater working, or is this a museum piece?

if you just want a heater to operate, then replace the oil burner.  Beckett AFG is about the most stupid-proof burner available.  But you should have a professional technician set it up with combustion test instruments 

that model of motor looks like the Arco piggyback oil burner motor.  You needed a special short shaft fuel pump to mount on that motor. The other side of the motor had a shaft to mount the burner fan.

EdTheHeaterMan

I just read your response to my private message. It appears that you have a furnace. Upgrading from that old burner to a more efficient "higher flame temperature" oil burner will be a real problem. The metal in that old furnace heat exchanger has a "memory" It expands and contracts as the flame cycles on and off. It has been doing that for many years. When you introduce a more efficient Beckett AFG burner, you will cause the metal to expand and contract at a different rate. This new rate will not be in the metals "memory". This new hotter flame will cause a catastrophic heat exchanger failure within a month of the replacement burner.

DO NOT PUT A HIGH EFFICIENCY BURNER IN THAT OLD HEATER

Your best bet is to find the motor or find someone that has an antique oil burner with a 1725 RPM motor without a Flame Retention burner head. Ask me how I know!

Steamhead

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I just read your response to my private message. It appears that you have a furnace. Upgrading from that old burner to a more efficient "higher flame temperature" oil burner will be a real problem. The metal in that old furnace heat exchanger has a "memory" It expands and contracts as the flame cycles on and off. It has been doing that for many years. When you introduce a more efficient Beckett AFG burner, you will cause the metal to expand and contract at a different rate. This new rate will not be in the metals "memory". This new hotter flame will cause a catastrophic heat exchanger failure within a month of the replacement burner.

DO NOT PUT A HIGH EFFICIENCY BURNER IN THAT OLD HEATER

Your best bet is to find the motor or find someone that has an antique oil burner with a 1725 RPM motor without a Flame Retention burner head. Ask me how I know!

@EdTheHeaterMan , not doubting your experience, but wouldn't a down-fired flame-retention burner work in this application, since it would release the same amount of heat into the firing zone? For example, I've read and experienced that when upgrading to flame retention, one should drop the firing rate by 15 percent or so and the new burner would still produce the same amount of heat. So, if the old-style burner fired 1.00 GPH, the flame-retention upgrade burner should fire 0.85 for the same heat output. Assuming the flame was contained in a proper firebox, would that still affect the "memory?

Yesterday

Here are some pictures of the burner assembly before and after breaking them apart.

EBEBRATT-Ed

You will never find a motor like that. Take it to a motor shop and hope they can fix it. Those old motors were good quality and heavy duty.

Or replace the burner.


I had a similar job once with an old Delco burner where the motor worked but the oil pump that was builtin to the motor opposite the fan end had failed.

This was at night and they needed heat and I didn't have another burner to install. But I had an old burner with the motor and the pump mounted on it. Set it on the floor next to the Delco, wired the motors in parallel. Ran a new nozzle line and connected the oil line from the tank to the spare burner.

Got them through the night and put a burner in the next day

Steamhead

Good one! Another trick for our collective magic bag.

mattmia2

I believe that's the burner the original furnace on my parent's house that was built in 1957 had. The furnace was a luxaire lowboy. It had a different oil pump on it.

Purely out of my curiosity, can you take a good picture of the red ratings plate for the burner?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I think ABC made a burner like that and there were some others, Beckett Comadore and there was another one but it's slipping my mind.

The one above might be the ABC looks farmalier.

mattmia2

Whatever that is, I'm pretty sure that is what my parents had. i seem to remember the red ratings plate and maybe even the motor reset button. i remember the cornders bolted to the plate on the front of the furnace and being sort of stood off, and the black hammertone plate. looking at commodore pictures it was similar but not quite the same. i think i even remember that junction box in the casting for the motor.

I even remember the oil cups with the little spring loaded cap on them.

EdTheHeaterMan

@Steamhead The flame temperature will still be different. The old metal will expand and contract at a different rate. There will be a heat exchanger failure before the end of the heating season.

HVACNUT

The bottom line is the OP needs a new furnace. Let's try to crawl out of the Stone Age. 
It's not like it hasn't been years in the making. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

I agree about the new furnace but having the motor fixed at a motor shop wold get him through the winter

Robert O'Brien

HVACNUT said:

The bottom line is the OP needs a new furnace. Let's try to crawl out of the Stone Age. 
It's not like it hasn't been years in the making. 

Years? Decades!

MikeAmann

Steamhead said:

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I just read your response to my private message. It appears that you have a furnace. Upgrading from that old burner to a more efficient "higher flame temperature" oil burner will be a real problem. The metal in that old furnace heat exchanger has a "memory" It expands and contracts as the flame cycles on and off. It has been doing that for many years. When you introduce a more efficient Beckett AFG burner, you will cause the metal to expand and contract at a different rate. This new rate will not be in the metals "memory". This new hotter flame will cause a catastrophic heat exchanger failure within a month of the replacement burner.

DO NOT PUT A HIGH EFFICIENCY BURNER IN THAT OLD HEATER

Your best bet is to find the motor or find someone that has an antique oil burner with a 1725 RPM motor without a Flame Retention burner head. Ask me how I know!

@EdTheHeaterMan , not doubting your experience, but wouldn't a down-fired flame-retention burner work in this application, since it would release the same amount of heat into the firing zone? For example, I've read and experienced that when upgrading to flame retention, one should drop the firing rate by 15 percent or so and the new burner would still produce the same amount of heat. So, if the old-style burner fired 1.00 GPH, the flame-retention upgrade burner should fire 0.85 for the same heat output. Assuming the flame was contained in a proper firebox, would that still affect the "memory?

I am the crazy fool that did exactly what Steamhead suggests. And I can confirm, at least in my case - so far), that as far as the burner goes, it works.
BUT, I now have the problem of the flue gas condensing inside of my chimney and it actually rains inside of the flue. My boiler itself is so much more efficient now because a larger percentage of the heat produced by the burner goes into heating the water (mine is a boiler). Therefore less wasted heat going up the chimney. Now I need a SS liner. But I don't view that as a bad thing. New project for this spring / summer.

Remember, improvements you make in one area are usually offset by unforeseen new problems created in another area. These are heating SYSTEMS.
The modern systems are now light-years from what you currently have.

MikeAmann

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

You will never find a motor like that. Take it to a motor shop and hope they can fix it. Those old motors were good quality and heavy duty.

Agree. If you are really lucky, maybe the bearings are just drying out.

EdTheHeaterMan

Of course everyone knows what they would do in @Yesterday situation.  But do you all know ALL the facts?   

What would you do if you were going to install a new gas furnace as soon as the main is extended to your property and that won’t be for 3 to 6 years?  

What would you do if you can’t afford a new furnace?

what would you do if you were selling in 3 years?

what would you do if the home was being demolished in 3 years for a new home to be built. But you don’t have anyplace to live until the construction starts in 3 years?


I’m sure everyone here would purchase the most state of the art high efficiency oil furnace from the highest priced contractor for $$$$$$$.00 in leu of a simple motor repair and replace it yourself. 

It’s all about the new equipment when something old is broken.  

It always happens.   Whenever you commit to a plan of action for a 5 year plan, some old pieces of equipment fails and you end up spending money to replace something you are going to discard in the next few years anyway 

I'm not sure what I might do but I wouldn’t put a flame retention burner in that old furnace. I’d try to get a motor repair  

HVACNUT

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Of course everyone knows what they would do in @Yesterday situation.  But do you all know ALL the facts?   

What would you do if you were going to install a new gas furnace as soon as the main is extended to your property and that won’t be for 3 to 6 years?  

What would you do if you can’t afford a new furnace?

what would you do if you were selling in 3 years?

what would you do if the home was being demolished in 3 years for a new home to be built. But you don’t have anyplace to live until the construction starts in 3 years?


I’m sure everyone here would purchase the most state of the art high efficiency oil furnace from the highest priced contractor for $$$$$$$.00 in leu of a simple motor repair and replace it yourself. 

It’s all about the new equipment when something old is broken.  

It always happens.   Whenever you commit to a plan of action for a 5 year plan, some old pieces of equipment fails and you end up spending money to replace something you are going to discard in the next few years anyway 

I'm not sure what I might do but I wouldn’t put a flame retention burner in that old furnace. I’d try to get a motor repair  

I would've pondered all that when the clock struck 2000 AD at minimum. 
If the OP wants to keep it and service it himself, that's fine, but don't expect a modern tech to touch it when there's a lot more calls up on the board and you're in over your head before you even touch it.
I've never actually seen that before so I probably would've done a 180 on the spot and got the hell out of Dodge right quick. No charge of course, and maybe some free advice. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

They are no different that any old low speed burner, The unfortunate arraingment is the oil pump mounting,

Many of those old motors has a switch inside and that is what would go bad. Even in 73 when I started we would have some of the special motors rebuilt to keep some old burners running

Oil was $.25/gallon when i started no one would spend money for a new burner

We had Petro burners with a step in the shaft and you couldn't buy them any more so we always has 2-3 of those rebuilt motors on the shelf

mattmia2

I wonder where this is located, if it was a regional product. My parents lived in southeast michigan. The ratings plate on the furnace says the make is "ocu".

EdTheHeaterMan

@MikeAmann, The advice is for Furnace only. Boilers can absorb the additional heat because there is water on the other side of the metal. The water won't let the metal go above 225°. The metal on a furnace heat exchanger will get well above 300° and the hotter the flame, the hotter the metal. The metal memory of the furnace heat exchanger after 40, 50 or, 75 years will be compromised in this case. Every old heat exchanger on a furnace is subject to this problem.

It happened 2 times by my hand. One was the second year I was working on oil burners. I installed a "Delavan Head" (an aftermarket flame retention head added on a old school burner) on a neighbor's furnace. The amount of fuel used was reduced by about 18% but the heat exchanger failed within 2 months. A new furnace needed to be installed in the coldest part of the winter. So, at age 19, did I do a good job?

The second was a mobile home furnace that was 8 years old. It was burning #2 fuel oil. The oil tank failed and the trailer park had just had new gas lines run. The homeowner wanted to convert the miller CMF80 with the manufacturer's recommended gas burner. I mentioned the problem to the customer, told them of the risk, and they elected the burner only (at about 1/2 the cost). The gas flame was actually cooler than the oil flame. The heat exchanger failed in the second season.. Back then the heat exchanger warranty was only 10 years on mobile furnaces. I installed the replacement furnace at a discount and took the 2 year old burner for another customer in the future. There were a lot of customers with limited income in my service area.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@EdTheHeaterMan

I here what your saying but those HXs could have been on the way out anyhow. Especially the Miller those have a poor record.

EdTheHeaterMan

@EBEBRATT-Ed, There are some Miller's that have lasted over 40 years. The home is in worse shape than the heater in many cases. I never change fuels on MHF from oil to gas unless the HX is less than 5 years old. That was my own personal rule. "Let the competitor deal with the problem job"

EBEBRATT-Ed

@EdTheHeaterMan

I changed a Miller that had a bad HX. Put a new one in and she kept complaining about an oil smell. Couldn't find anything wrong.

We finally disconnected the furnace and pulled it out in the driveway and found a 1/4" inch hole at the end of a weld they missed at the factory.

I don't remember if they gave us a new HX or an entire new furnace but it was ok after that. But I was done with Millers & trailers

EdTheHeaterMan

@EBEBRATT-Ed ... Someone needs to work on them. Sorry you had a bad experience. Knowing Miller, they probably gave you a heat exchanger. That experience would definitely turn me off Trailers early on in my career. There were so many oil furnaces in trailers and the oil dealers that depended on me sold oil to trailer folks.

You were lucky to be able to make that choice. I had to deal with some real "Trailer Trash" back in the day.

MikeAmann

EdTheHeaterMan said:

@MikeAmann, The advice is for Furnace only. Boilers can absorb the additional heat because there is water on the other side of the metal. The water won't let the metal go above 225°. The metal on a furnace heat exchanger will get well above 300° and the hotter the flame, the hotter the metal. The metal memory of the furnace heat exchanger after 40, 50 or, 75 years will be compromised in this case. Every old heat exchanger on a furnace is subject to this problem.

Thanks for the great explanation Ed. Now I understand your point and the difference.
I believe this is the proper term: Embrittlement is the loss of ductility of the metal. It is similar to what happens when you keep bending a paper clip back-and-forth. It will eventually break.

EdTheHeaterMan

@MikeAmann

I strongly recommend upgrading a boiler from the older style (pre 1970) standard burner to the higher temperature flame of a Beckett, Riello, Carlin, or any other Flame Retention head flame burner. I started my first business in the mid 1970s based on my ability to save customers big bucks by replacing old standard burners with Carlin 99CRD and & 100CRD oil burners.

I remember saving one customer over 65% on the oil usage. It was an old movie theater that was converted to a catering hall. Low budget outfit... The floor was still on a 2-12 pitch towards the Stage/Screen side of the room (...Don't fill the wine glasses to much... LOL).

There was an old coal steamer in the basement. Took 8 hours to get the 7.00GPH oil burner to make enough steam to satisfy the thermostat. The pressure never reached 1.5 PSI. After redesigning the fire door to accept the new Carlin 301CRD burner (moving the flame from the old ash pit combustion chamber location to the upper fire door location put the flame where the coal fire was designed). The boiler went off by pressure (1.5 PSI) within 18 minutes and the thermostat was satisfied within the hour.

The customer was not convinced that the system would work so well. He only half trusted me, so he started the burner 4 hours before the next event after the burner job. He was pleasantly surprised when the room was heated in 1 hour. By the way... I fired the new burner at 4.50 GPH to keep the stack temperature below 500°NET.

Do the Math. 8 Hrs x 7.00GPH = 56 gallons to get the room to temperature.
Do the Math. 1 Hr x 4.50 GPH = Less that 4.5 Gallons because the burner did cycle on pressure.

I think he saved enough on fuel to get the floor leveled the next year. (Not really sure on that)

mattmia2

So did the oil truck arrive with the guests at each event?

MikeAmann

@EdTheHeaterMan
Yes Ed, converting to the F-R head burner is what started me down this rabbit hole.
Conventional head - .85 GPH and sooty.
Flame-retention head - .71 and clean.
I love how my converted burner operates now!

But now I have to deal with flue gas condensation in the chimney flue.
A SS liner will be next. I just have to figure out the proper size.
See this if you haven't already: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/186869/help-to-determine-the-correct-size-type-of-chimney-liner#latest

Steamhead

EdTheHeaterMan said:

@MikeAmann

I strongly recommend upgrading a boiler from the older style (pre 1970) standard burner to the higher temperature flame of a Beckett, Riello, Carlin, or any other Flame Retention head flame burner. I started my first business in the mid 1970s based on my ability to save customers big bucks by replacing old standard burners with Carlin 99CRD and & 100CRD oil burners.

I remember saving one customer over 65% on the oil usage. It was an old movie theater that was converted to a catering hall. Low budget outfit... The floor was still on a 2-12 pitch towards the Stage/Screen side of the room (...Don't fill the wine glasses to much... LOL).

There was an old coal steamer in the basement. Took 8 hours to get the 7.00GPH oil burner to make enough steam to satisfy the thermostat. The pressure never reached 1.5 PSI. After redesigning the fire door to accept the new Carlin 301CRD burner (moving the flame from the old ash pit combustion chamber location to the upper fire door location put the flame where the coal fire was designed). The boiler went off by pressure (1.5 PSI) within 18 minutes and the thermostat was satisfied within the hour.

The customer was not convinced that the system would work so well. He only half trusted me, so he started the burner 4 hours before the next event after the burner job. He was pleasantly surprised when the room was heated in 1 hour. By the way... I fired the new burner at 4.50 GPH to keep the stack temperature below 500°NET.

Do the Math. 8 Hrs x 7.00GPH = 56 gallons to get the room to temperature.
Do the Math. 1 Hr x 4.50 GPH = Less that 4.5 Gallons because the burner did cycle on pressure.

I think he saved enough on fuel to get the floor leveled the next year. (Not really sure on that)

I think that's the most dramatic fuel-savings story we've seen here. Good job!

FStephenMasek

Why not just repair the motor? Maybe just a broken spring?

EdTheHeaterMan

Steamhead said:

 I think that's the most dramatic fuel-savings story we've seen here. Good job!

I was surprised myself when the boiler made steam so fast.  At the time I knew very little about steam.  I just found out the numbers after I returned a week later (after the first wedding reception post burner job) to collect the final payment upon completion.  I still laugh about the incline floor catering hall. 

Yesterday

It's time to give everyone an update on my adventure. Today I took the motor to Gadderdam's a local industrial electric motor rebuilding co. One of the original family business founding members Frank (70) took a look at the motor. One he's had experience working on in the past. His pre-diagnosis after asking questions and seeing it run is that it's an internal starter switch (common to the Ohio Electric MFG Co's Oil Burner motors). He plans on going through the motor and getting it back to an operational motor in the next day or two.

I do appreciate all the interest and everyone's opinion. Everyone has validity to the comments that have been made.

I'm old school and I've loved the experience this old furnace has provided me. Like some of you, I appreciate that I'm able to meet this challenge in my own way, with the particular circumstances that are my world.

In the event that I have no other choice, I'll replace this old heater with something in the future. Till then I'll continue to heed your advice but, enjoy the challenges. I hope everyone will understand.

I'll keep you all up to date as I make it through this adventure.

MikeAmann

I still laugh about the incline floor catering hall.

I can just picture the guests trying to dance on that inclined floor....... especially after a few drinks.

mattmia2

Can i see the ratings plate on the oil burner itself? I just want to know what this thing is because my parents had one. Thanks.

MikeAmann

@Yesterday
Any updates?

Yesterday

I thought I would jump back on the site and give everyone an update. 

Call me crazy for trying to get that motor fixed, but I did get it repaired, probably out of desperation.

 Not by the electric motor repair shops, not by the 2 electrical engineers, not by the furnace repair companies I spoke with, not by the switch fabrication companies, not even the original motor manufacturer. 





It was a cold, sleep-deprived month and a half of cutting, splitting, and burning wood in the fireplace inserts.

  






 

I managed to keep the family, and house warm.

In my search, I had just enough help along the way to figure it out.

 The motor repair shop made a manual start switch, which was an improvement over burning wood, but I  was still a slave to heating the house, a human thermostat.
They were very helpful in researching the components of the motor and identifying the only problem with it; 

THE SWITCH. 




I had electrical engineers from across the country make suggestions on a replacement. None that were successful. 

I tried to have the switch specially made but was unsuccessful.

I contacted the new version of the original motor manufacturer and as most of you suggested, the motor is outdated and to them, not repairable.

I had a good conversation with one of the senior engineers at Sid Harvey who ended up being critical in solving the problem. 

So the problem was the switch, but just one component of the switch. The solenoid bridge contact points.




The motor repair shop identified that as the problem and tried to rebuild them. They weren't successful. Even with the help from Sid Harvey providing pure silver contact points. I picked up the motor unhappy contemplating the next several months as a surrogate thermostat. 

I decided to take on the challenge of finding a way to put contact points in the switch. I pulled the solenoid and bridge. I polished the bridge and the contacts on the switch. 

I took 2 of the contacts provided by Sid Harvey and disassembled them. They were a rivet type on blades.

 


I  needed to allow for them to recess in the bridge plate. So I  drilled holes near the ends. I held the points in place with pliers and snuggly wrapped the contact blade around the bridge. A little tedious at the least, the alignment was difficult.




















So I installed the solenoid and bridge with the new points attached to the switch. And it worked!!! Till I put the switch cover on and it didn't work.





Even though the cover was worn from the decades of reliable service the guide channel needed to be widened to allow the clearance for the new bridge design to cycle cleanly.





I tested it, assembled it, and it worked until I tried to lock the cover in place with a rod that passes through the cover and the shaft of the solenoid plunger and ends below the base of the switch where it is crimped. The alignment and tolerances aren't forgiving. It took a lot of creativity to solve this issue.













With persistence I was successful. Again the switch was working till I installed it permanently on the motor. Another setback, the wiring that was attached to the switch and placed on the motor was twisting the contact terminals inside the switch keeping it from working. Everything has a certain way to put Humpty Dumpty back together to work again.

So I  adjusted the wires and reinstalled the switch on the motor and it's worked now for a month.




I did it! It wasn't easy, but I  can make it till the new furnace arrives in May, just in time for the air-conditioning season.

I hope you've enjoyed this adventure as well as I have. I've learned a lot more about this old furnace and what it was like to heat a home with wood. Lots of lessons.
 

Yesterday

EdTheHeaterMan

"Necessity is the mother of invention..." Desperation is the father of "Get-R-Done"
Good story.