New System 2000 EK-1 Installation

Cackster

Hello! Firstly, let me say how much I love this forum- tons of awesome people and info.

Question: I am about to pull the trigger on an EK-1 system for our 2800 sq ft 1980 colonial in Connecticut, currently being heated by an original New Yorker oil boiler with a 193k gross output BTU that's very quickly draining my bank account and most definitely has to go... Our biggest problem is deciding what to do regarding the DHW tank.

Unfortunately, a week before we set out to install the EK-1 integrated system with the 80 gallon tank, our indirect hot water tank decided to let go.... I had no choice but to get a new one installed. We are a family of 4 (me/wife, grandpa and grandma, and baby stella 3 years old). Our plumber was able to get us a 43 gallon Bradford White indirect from a local plumbing supply store and installed same day. The problem we face now is deciding what to do with the installation of our EK-1 system... I read a bunch of posts by Roger on here saying the savings are substantial at 10% yearly by using their tank, but I also spoke with EK on the phone earlier today, and was told it's only about 7% savings and that's only on the DHW side of yearly costs, not the boiler savings. With that being said, the savings would really be pennies and I doubt i'd make back the 3 grand I spent on the new HWH anytime soon? Should I just keep it and spec the Ek-1 without their water heater?

Would love some clarity and or help making this decision. I was also told that we can probably get along fine with a 43 gallon tank and the 80 isn't necessary. We are not a family that has high flow jet shower heads, Jacuzzis, and rarely ever take baths. We also try our best to exercise being considerate to one another and rarely shower back to back, and also always keep our showers at a maximum of 10 minutes.... That being said, Stella is growing up fast, and I'm sure a teenage girl will love her showers.

Thanks for any help, clarity and direction with my conundrum! Can't wait to have the EK-1 system installed once I decide the best way to go.

Roger

Thank you for your decision to install a System 2000 and for your confidence in your heating professional and Energy Kinetics, @Cackster . Since you have a brand new indirect water heater, I would recommend that you keep it. In hindsight, we have indirect tanks with plate heat exchangers that would get you part way to an eventual System 2000 installation and that would have been a good match for your existing system and prepare it for the upgrade.
You'll have very good savings vs your old system with the indirect tank. The 5% to 10% greater annual savings with a tank using a plate heat exchanger compared to a tank with a coil is overall, not just for hot water. I went into some detail on this on this thread.
If you wanted to dive deeper, based on your fuel consumption and costs, you could calculate the savings and compare that to your heating pro's quote to replace the tank to estimate your payback period.
Best,
Roger

STEVEusaPA

In reality, what difference does it make? You have the new indirect already. Install it with the EK. You'll still do better than what you had. And if/when down the road the indirect takes a dump, put the EK one in.
10%, 7%, is basically an educated guess based on their experience, It's probably better than that but if they tell you 20% and it's 18% or 19% then some people would start a whole 'Karen' situation.
I won't speak for Roger (he'll probably be on shortly as the EK bat signal is in the air), but I think the overall system savings would be higher.

Cackster

STEVEusaPA said:

In reality, what difference does it make? You have the new indirect already. Install it with the EK. You'll still do better than what you had. And if/when down the road the indirect takes a dump, put the EK one in.
10%, 7%, is basically an educated guess based on their experience, It's probably better than that but if they tell you 20% and it's 18% or 19% then some people would start a whole 'Karen' situation.
I won't speak for Roger (he'll probably be on shortly as the EK bat signal is in the air), but I think the overall system savings would be higher.

well the problem is my installer didn't want to outfit the EK-1 with necessary component to use the EK1 tank down the line. This is precisely what I told him to do... Even if it costs a bit more, I would like the option to put an ek1 tank on it down the line. Forgive me, I don't remember what the part is called.... I think it's the tankless coil part of the EK1. He made the argument that it would cost way more money to redo all the piping, delete my current zone etc. as opposed to just getting another bradford white which has a lifetime warranty on it anyway, so technically if mine fails, I get a new one for free...

I guess I see the obvious route I'm taking here, I just wish I had thought about installing an EK1 water heater first as Roger just mentioned. I didn't know that was possible.

Roger

Thank you, @Crackster . The System 2000 boiler is manufactured with union connections to accept a plate heat exchanger in the future (and for service if necessary), so there is no need to install the plate heat exchanger initially. The installation of a plate heat exchanger at a later date is very simple (although the tank and circulator installation required for replacing an indirect tank is a bit more involved).
Best,
Roger

Cackster

Roger said:

Thank you, @Crackster . The System 2000 boiler is manufactured with union connections to accept a plate heat exchanger in the future (and for service if necessary), so there is no need to install the plate heat exchanger initially. The installation of a plate heat exchanger at a later date is very simple (although the tank and circulator installation required for replacing an indirect tank is a bit more involved).
Best,
Roger

Oh that's great! He told me the plate heat exchanger was not something I could add later and I'd have to either leave it out or have it installed and capped, and just let it sit there for X amount of years until I got an EK tank. That's great news! So I can just convert my system down the line then when my hot water heater fails- makes sense. Although, it does seem if I can get another bradford white for free with the lifetime warranty, it might not make sense to incur the extra expense.

if you could speak to the 40 gallon tank capacity of an indirect for 4 adults and a child, would you say that's sufficient for people that don't like to be belted by JET shower heads the size of flying saucers and take normal 10 minute (staggered) showers? Thank you!!!

Cackster

I've decided to just stick with my new coiled indirect and proceed with the Ek1 system 2000 - I do have one more question....

Do you all recommend a scale stopper? The water here is borderline hard (Let's call it medium). Test put it slightly below the hard range. Last water heater lasted 15 years before leaking out on the bottom, so I'm not sure how problematic the water is here.

SuperTech

It couldn't hurt to have a scale stopper but from my understanding it's more important to have one installed when using the brazed plate heat exchanger for hot water.

Cackster

SuperTech said:

It couldn't hurt to have a scale stopper but from my understanding it's more important to have one installed when using the brazed plate heat exchanger for hot water.

Spoke with Roger about this and he recommended that given the range of my water hardness, I should install one anyway. Seems like cheap insurance and might make the indirect last a bit longer. I still need to figure out the proper maintenance of my new water tank. I see it has two Anodes, which I read should be serviced every couple of years? Anyway, Thanks you for the response!

Roger

For reference on this topic, plate heat exchangers, indirect tank coils and tankless coils are subject to the laws of nature, and hard water can plate out and foul hot domestic side surfaces over time.
Energy Kinetics introduced Silicon Dioxide coated heat exchangers last year. This non-stick surface coating prevents lime and mineral build up for exceptional long term performance in hard water applications. All residential boilers and pool heater plate heat exchangers now have this coating as standard.
We recommend a scale stopper for domestic water up to 25 grains of hardness as it very cost effectively brings water conditioning benefits to the entire home.

For reference on anode rods, the rate they are depleted is very site specific. If they are depleted, the tank loses protection and can become the target of corrosion and eventual failure. I have see the following note from tank manufacturers: The anode rod should be removed from the water heater tank every 3 years for inspection. If the rod is more than 50% depleted, the anode rod should be replaced.
Best,
Roger

Cackster

Roger said:

For reference on this topic, plate heat exchangers, indirect tank coils and tankless coils are subject to the laws of nature, and hard water can plate out and foul hot domestic side surfaces over time.
Energy Kinetics introduced Silicon Dioxide coated heat exchangers last year. This non-stick surface coating prevents lime and mineral build up for exceptional long term performance in hard water applications. All residential boilers and pool heater plate heat exchangers now have this coating as standard.
We recommend a scale stopper for domestic water up to 25 grains of hardness as it very cost effectively brings water conditioning benefits to the entire home.

For reference on anode rods, the rate they are depleted is very site specific. If they are depleted, the tank loses protection and can become the target of corrosion and eventual failure. I have see the following note from tank manufacturers: The anode rod should be removed from the water heater tank every 3 years for inspection. If the rod is more than 50% depleted, the anode rod should be replaced.
Best,
Roger

You're a class act Roger- I really appreciate everything!!! I can't wait to be part of the EK family... I've told my installer I want a scale stopper regardless. Hopefully no pushback, lol.

SuperTech

As you can see you made a great choice going with EK. The customer service and tech support can't be beat and the boilers are my favorite by far. I did a scale stopper on my indirect and replace it about every 4 months.  A nice upgrade for your indirect tank would be a powered anode, never needs replacement.  I would go with that after you use up the original anode rods.

Cackster

SuperTech said:

As you can see you made a great choice going with EK. The customer service and tech support can't be beat and the boilers are my favorite by far. I did a scale stopper on my indirect and replace it about every 4 months.  A nice upgrade for your indirect tank would be a powered anode, never needs replacement.  I would go with that after you use up the original anode rods.

wow didn't even know something like that existed- super cool. Thanks so much! How much are the scale stopper replacements? Thanks!

SuperTech

Replacement Aqua Pure AP431 scale stopper cartridges typically run around $30. Glad to help!