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Pipes banging after work done and parts replaced on Boiler Heating
Smith_404
Member Posts: 4
Hello.
I`m in a building with 6 units and radiant heating in upstate NY (see attached photos). Recently we've had a bunch of parts replaced and the issue I have now is everytime the t-stat calls for heat on unit 6 the hot water struggles to fill the pipe, its noisy AF. It'll wake you out of your sleep at night, especially when the heat is cycling on/off as frequently as every 5-10min.
If someone knows whats going on please help. The Tech is very young, they lost the more experienced guy at the company. The landlord has been willing to do a lot of suggested repairs for other issues (?) but always gives me the run around when there is a noise issue after some part has been changed.
We've tried bleeding the pipes in the units but it comes right back within 24 hrs in this colder weather (15 F), it took about a week to manifest in 40F outside. It made some noise last year when we had a new tech come do work but this is louder and more consistent than a simple ticking noise. It sounds like water and air filling a pipe bang bang bang like a bouncy ball quickly loosing or gaining its bounce. This happens before the pipe goes up to the upper level and again in the bathroom wall where the pipe temporarily dips under the floor. Then the pipes over all will pop, bang, tick at a slower rate for the next 1-4 minuets. It is worse at night but can be terrible during the day also. I got tapping in my own pipes (#4) sometimes when they start which never really happens in the years Ive lived here. The #4 unit has worked consistently well anytime there has been other issues with the boiler system, these pipes are more or less inline with the wall mounts in the boiler room.
4 pictures attached as jpg files.
Parts replaced: Expansion Tank, water fill valve from the water main, and zone valves. The electrical was upgraded into a box to make it look nicer.
Notes: The water never used to be this hot in previous winters. I`m measuring 152 F out of the bathroom pipe. I`m putting the water in a pre-heated themos cup (tap hot water max 135 F) and using a meat thermometer. Zone valves to #4 and #6 were replaced last year. When they closed, water hammer shook the pipes in #4 (on the far left in pic) and to a lesser extent number 6 (2nd from left). To reduce the water hammer their researched solution was to choke off water flow using the previously installed flow valves just after each zone valve. There is supposedly an outside temperature sensor to adjust the boiler. In the fall the pipes where hardly warm and it took a couple hours to change the temperature in building/units. Since about 40 F outside the pipes have been hot.
Building Design: This is a 3 story building with 2 units each floor. 6 is the furthermost away from the boiler (and highest) and the apartment below it takes all the beating where all the pipe bends and transitions. Each unit has a pipe that runs along all the outside walls and dips below the floor anywhere there is a closet, tub, or patio door. The #6 pipe runs along the floor of the middle of the building (or ceiling of laundry/utility rooms) and then takes a 90 bend towards the outside wall to go up to unit. #6 differs from #4 where when it makes its dip below a bedroom closet and tub in the bathroom, it snakes about 3-4 ft to an inside wall and back instead of having the heather under the bathroom window.
I`m in a building with 6 units and radiant heating in upstate NY (see attached photos). Recently we've had a bunch of parts replaced and the issue I have now is everytime the t-stat calls for heat on unit 6 the hot water struggles to fill the pipe, its noisy AF. It'll wake you out of your sleep at night, especially when the heat is cycling on/off as frequently as every 5-10min.
If someone knows whats going on please help. The Tech is very young, they lost the more experienced guy at the company. The landlord has been willing to do a lot of suggested repairs for other issues (?) but always gives me the run around when there is a noise issue after some part has been changed.
We've tried bleeding the pipes in the units but it comes right back within 24 hrs in this colder weather (15 F), it took about a week to manifest in 40F outside. It made some noise last year when we had a new tech come do work but this is louder and more consistent than a simple ticking noise. It sounds like water and air filling a pipe bang bang bang like a bouncy ball quickly loosing or gaining its bounce. This happens before the pipe goes up to the upper level and again in the bathroom wall where the pipe temporarily dips under the floor. Then the pipes over all will pop, bang, tick at a slower rate for the next 1-4 minuets. It is worse at night but can be terrible during the day also. I got tapping in my own pipes (#4) sometimes when they start which never really happens in the years Ive lived here. The #4 unit has worked consistently well anytime there has been other issues with the boiler system, these pipes are more or less inline with the wall mounts in the boiler room.
4 pictures attached as jpg files.
Parts replaced: Expansion Tank, water fill valve from the water main, and zone valves. The electrical was upgraded into a box to make it look nicer.
Notes: The water never used to be this hot in previous winters. I`m measuring 152 F out of the bathroom pipe. I`m putting the water in a pre-heated themos cup (tap hot water max 135 F) and using a meat thermometer. Zone valves to #4 and #6 were replaced last year. When they closed, water hammer shook the pipes in #4 (on the far left in pic) and to a lesser extent number 6 (2nd from left). To reduce the water hammer their researched solution was to choke off water flow using the previously installed flow valves just after each zone valve. There is supposedly an outside temperature sensor to adjust the boiler. In the fall the pipes where hardly warm and it took a couple hours to change the temperature in building/units. Since about 40 F outside the pipes have been hot.
Building Design: This is a 3 story building with 2 units each floor. 6 is the furthermost away from the boiler (and highest) and the apartment below it takes all the beating where all the pipe bends and transitions. Each unit has a pipe that runs along all the outside walls and dips below the floor anywhere there is a closet, tub, or patio door. The #6 pipe runs along the floor of the middle of the building (or ceiling of laundry/utility rooms) and then takes a 90 bend towards the outside wall to go up to unit. #6 differs from #4 where when it makes its dip below a bedroom closet and tub in the bathroom, it snakes about 3-4 ft to an inside wall and back instead of having the heather under the bathroom window.
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Comments
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Somewhere on the boiler is a pressure and temp gauge, can you get a picture of that?
Also show us the new expansion tank please.
And back up to show more of the piping.
The 152 temp is that out of the heating system or the faucet on the sink?0 -
152 is out of the heating pipe in the middle of unit 4. My faucet on the sink is 135.
The new expansion tank is grey, sits on the floor and is about 3x the size of the old one on the ceiling. It sits on the far left of the room about 6-8 ft from the boiler in the picture.
I can't get any more pictures because I am the tenant, these were posted on the company's Instagram to promote their business. I have been shown the boiler in person before this is our place. Everything is "perfect" you know. There has been 9 service trips to the building in the last 16 months for something else to be done.
I need to convince her that there's more to be done, more things to look at and adjust. I had to go through the same thing last year when they replaced my zone valve where the new one slams shut every time.
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So they removed a steel compression tank and replaced it with a bladder type tank? Did they add air elimination? When they replaced the PRV did they set it for the height of the building? Did they set the precharge of the new tank to match the PRV?0
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See Reply above in BOLD. We had some of this noise last year before replacing the tank but it's definitely worse this year!!! 3 yrs ago nothing made noise. You may get a small single gurgle of water travel around the apartments on the initial call for heat once in a blue moon.mattmia2 said:So they removed a steel compression tank and replaced it with a bladder type tank? YES Did they add air elimination? YES, IN 2 OTHER SPOTS, NOT SURE IF ONE IS ON THE TANK? When they replaced the PRV did they set it for the height of the building? IS THIS PVR ON THE BOILER? Did they set the precharge of the new tank to match the PRV? GOOD QUESTION
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There should be an air separator on the outlet of the boiler somewhere, ideally a microbubble style separator. The prv(pressure reducing valve) is what feeds water in to the system. Since your building is taller than a typical residential house, the pressure needs to be a bit more than the usual factory setting for the PRV and the expansion tank to be able to get all the air out of the top of the system.0
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I spoke briefly with the company and their initial thought was the same as mine and the landlord's,, it would take/need a few system bleeds to get all the air out of them system after major repairs. We have been doing that already and we now have more air than we started with and/or it's all collecting in the zones furthest and tallest away from the boiler.mattmia2 said:There should be an air separator on the outlet of the boiler somewhere, ideally a microbubble style separator. The prv(pressure reducing valve) is what feeds water in to the system. Since your building is taller than a typical residential house, the pressure needs to be a bit more than the usual factory setting for the PRV and the expansion tank to be able to get all the air out of the top of the system.
Within a couple days of the work done we were hearing water running through the pipes and some glug glug at the transitions under the floor, again. This has been an ongoing thing this year and that noise doesn't bother us. It came back after he replaced the PVR valve (the building lost too much water when units were bleeding pipes and it wasn't being refilled.
Now with the colder weather the air is jammed up in that one unit above us. Sometimes we hear tapping and buzzing in our pipes during startup.
What's going on here??? Water is being lost into the expansion tank but it isn't being replaced when needed because the PVR valve was A) initially corroded and
the replacement may not be adjusted well enough?
Little elves are hammering away in several spots every time those pipes go to fill with hot water. We tried living through it but who can when you apartment sounds like a construction zone. It will wake you from your sleep in the middle of the night.
The company should be gaurenting the work done at no extra cost. I should get a response back by the end of the day today.
Anything else to look at?0 -
What is the prv set to/the pressure at the boiler? You have to have enough pressure to overcome the weight of the water to force the air out of the top of the system/force it to dissolve in the water so it will come down to the air separator at the boiler and be removed. If it is circulating and a quality air separator was installed at the right place in the system it should not require multiple bleedings, the air should eventually work its way to the air separator and be removed. If the prr setting it too low you will never get the air out of the top of the system.
They should have used this style of air separator:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-551028A-1-1-4-Sweat-DISCAL-Air-Separator0
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