Weil McLain LGB vs. Smith 19HE?

delcrossv

Any advantages of a "wet" firebox vs. a "dry" one? Experiences with either would be helpful- both come in the right size range.

Steamhead

Of those two I'd use the Smith. The wet base picks up more heat from the flame, and the combustion process uses less excess air. Also take a look at the W-M 80 series.

delcrossv

@Steamhead Thanks for the tip on the W-M 80.

The Steam Whisperer

A number of the steam guys here at the Wall ( including myself) use the 80 series along with a Carlin gas burner. Nice quiet performing boiler with big 7 inch wide sections and large 4 inch tappings. I am not a fan of the Weil McLain Plastic gaskets between the sections, but I still use this boiler since it works so well. The LGB is the lightest duty large commercial boiler out there, probably 24 years life if well maintained. At 24 years the gaskets seem to give out, but usually the lightweight sections are also done for by that time. I've found that the hi/low feature of the LGB works pretty well...combustion stays much better than the Peerless 211A on low fire, so efficiency is improved.
If you are looking for something 1, 000,000 btu input and up, I prefer the Peerless TCII, very heavy castings ( heavier than the WM 88 series), better service ports and graphite gaskets between the sections instead of plastic.

Here are a pair of "baby " 80s we installed at my church last year along with orifices on all the convectors and radiators. They are stage fired by two stage thermostats, so only one fires except when bringing the building out of set back.

delcrossv

@The Steam Whisperer Longevity is key so guess that strikes out the LGB. Looking in the 550-600 MBH range so half the size of the Peerless.

Further recommendations very welcome.

Very nice installation!

Steamhead

delcrossv said:

@The Steam Whisperer ...Very nice installation!

This!

delcrossv

One more to add to the mix: Burnham V9A?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@delcrossv

Smith gets my vote the 19 has been out a long time and they work well. Not a Burnham fan

The Steam Whisperer

Thanks guys on the compliments. I do the piping schematics, but my main install tech does the magic with the pipes!
I have no experience with the Smith 19, but I believe you can also get the same boiler as the Peerless CC. These all have graphite gaskets too IIRCand 3 inch tappings.

If sticking with simple atmospherics, the Peerless 64 series goes up to 630,000 input and the Peerless 211A goes down to 630,000. Again, these are both the heaviest castings in thier size range. The 64 are also metal push nipple design, so will probably outlast anything else.

That pair of baby 80's is only 690,000 input, so it could be an option too. They directly heat about 12,000 sq ft of building and also provide heating to another 3,000 sq ft when not under heavy load ( setback recovery from 45F)

delcrossv

Graphite or Viton on the Peerless? The Smith is Viton. The 64 looks good except for the dry firebox. (not a deal breaker as the JB is a dry box, but the retort cement to the exchanger is gettin' old.
Anyone doing a heavy casting wet firebox with push nipples in that size range that you guys could recommend?

The Steam Whisperer

Peerless makes the SC, but I would absolutely steer clear of it. We installed 3 of those with 3 different burners and all three were burning up the burner heads. 2 we removed and replaced with 80 series and one we were able to downfire and is no longer having burner problems. The chamber temperatures are just too high apparently. They are pushing too much heat into too small of a boiler.

delcrossv

Gotcha.

Per EBERATT-Ed's comment, what's the issue with the Burnham V9A? Seems Crown makes something similar S24?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@The Steam Whisperer said

"The chamber temperatures are just too high apparently. They are pushing too much heat into too small of a boiler."

Like every boiler made today.


"Heat release" is what the boiler mfgs call it

It's one reason they don't last as long IMHO. The 100 year old boilers were big chunks of cast iron to absorb the heat and they lasted a long time.

No one seemed concerned about boiler water quality PH or anything else back then and they still lasted. Big boilers and a small fire by comparison to today's boilers.

Boilers didn't seem to rot back then. Most failures were due to sludge build up inside the boiler from lack of maintenance causing a section to overheat and crack

Yes, they had long warm up times and increased standby losses &decreased efficiency.

A good compromise were some of the 1960s & 1970s vintage boilers. Smaller than the old stuff and larger than today's boilers moderately fired you could get 20, 30 or 40 years out of them.

Now, too many failures of 6, 8,10 year old boilers. Lack of maintenance is a more critical issue now because of the increased heat input

just my rant

delcrossv

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

A good compromise were some of the 1960s & 1970s vintage boilers. Smaller than the old stuff and larger than today's boilers moderately fired you could get 20, 30 or 40 years out of them.

Now, too many failures of 6, 8,10 year old boilers. Lack of maintenance is a more critical issue now because of the increased heat input

just my rant

I'm pushing 60 years out of the Weil JB-5. What made today, if maintained, will last that long?
Spec a larger boiler with a smaller burner and purposefully underfire? No 80% then.

@EBEBRATT-Ed , sent you a PM.

The Steam Whisperer

delcrossv said:

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

A good compromise were some of the 1960s & 1970s vintage boilers. Smaller than the old stuff and larger than today's boilers moderately fired you could get 20, 30 or 40 years out of them.

Now, too many failures of 6, 8,10 year old boilers. Lack of maintenance is a more critical issue now because of the increased heat input

just my rant

I'm pushing 60 years out of the Weil JB-5. What made today, if maintained, will last that long?
Spec a larger boiler with a smaller burner and purposefully underfire? No 80% then.

@EBEBRATT-Ed , sent you a PM.

You've got the idea....power burner running at low rate in oversized boiler. Also, a modulating burner should also get you longer life since it can run at low fire for periods....especially if you run an orificed 2 pipe system. The boiler can run at most 60% fire for 90% of the heating season....with the proper control.

delcrossv

The Steam Whisperer said:

You've got the idea....power burner running at low rate in oversized boiler. Also, a modulating burner should also get you longer life since it can run at low fire for periods....especially if you run an orificed 2 pipe system. The boiler can run at most 60% fire for 90% of the heating season....with the proper control.

That would solve a lot of unevenness with my 1 pipe system too. Longer burns at lower input. Modulation input is off pressure?

jhewings

The Steam Whisperer said:

You've got the idea....power burner running at low rate in oversized boiler. Also, a modulating burner should also get you longer life since it can run at low fire for periods....especially if you run an orificed 2 pipe system. The boiler can run at most 60% fire for 90% of the heating season....with the proper control.


@The Steam Whisperer Can be done on a WM EGH that is about 15% oversized (1 pipe)

The Steam Whisperer

delcrossv said:

The Steam Whisperer said:

You've got the idea....power burner running at low rate in oversized boiler. Also, a modulating burner should also get you longer life since it can run at low fire for periods....especially if you run an orificed 2 pipe system. The boiler can run at most 60% fire for 90% of the heating season....with the proper control.

That would solve a lot of unevenness with my 1 pipe system too. Longer burns at lower input. Modulation input is off pressure?

On one pipe steam I'd say modulate off pressure. On two pipe orifice modulate on outdoor temperature reset.

delcrossv

jhewings said:

@The Steam Whisperer Can be done on a WM EGH that is about 15% oversized (1 pipe)

That gets me to 2000 sq.ft of EDR- and opens up a lot of options

Steve_210

The only downside of a power burner, If there was an atmospheric burner there before You will almost definitely get complaints about the noise Levell’s.

delcrossv

Steve_210 said:

The only downside of a power burner, If there was an atmospheric burner there before You will almost definitely get complaints about the noise Levell’s.

There is an apartment right over the boiler. So I guess a Peerless 64 slightly oversized with either a 2 stage valve or a modulated regulator? 

How do you get a proportional signal off a pressuretrol to drive the regulator? 

The Steam Whisperer

For a quiet power burner check these out......
http://www.ind-comb.com/Documents/Brochures/IC-SA-1731 Q Brochure 4-2014.pdf

Much, much quieter than standard power burners. ECM motor is quieter and draws about 1/2 the electricity of standard burners. We are now using these for all our modulating apps.....Power Flame is 6 to 8 weeks or more to get a burner and we can get these immediately. My burner tech says they are easier to set up too.
Also with the outdoor air option, they are probably even quieter yet.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@The Steam Whisperer

I was a Power Flame rep 35 years ago. The local IC guy was a crook I bid jobs against him for years. IC makes some good burners I have installed a few in the past.

But I still have a bad taste in my mouth LOL

After I did a few Websters I liked them better

jhewings

@delcrossv
Sorry in the following post above I mistyped. I didn't mean to imply it can be done with EGH.
I meant to ask @The Steam Whisperer if it can be done.


jhewings said:



@The Steam Whisperer Can be done on a WM EGH that is about 15% oversized (1 pipe)

(@delcrossv ) That gets me to 2000 sq.ft of EDR- and opens up a lot of options

delcrossv

A low noise power burner opens possibilities. Thanks!

delcrossv

The Steam Whisperer said:

For a quiet power burner check these out......
http://www.ind-comb.com/Documents/Brochures/IC-SA-1731 Q Brochure 4-2014.pdf

Much, much quieter than standard power burners. ECM motor is quieter and draws about 1/2 the electricity of standard burners. We are now using these for all our modulating apps.....Power Flame is 6 to 8 weeks or more to get a burner and we can get these immediately. My burner tech says they are easier to set up too.
Also with the outdoor air option, they are probably even quieter yet.

Thanks! that's really helpful.
So, what is the input for modulation? Is it make on rise or a proportional signal?

delcrossv

OK a L91B (or something like it)for the proportional signal? Add an aquastat so no full bore cold starts? Keep max burner output below boiler rated input?

Looks like a 19HE but one size up and underfire is the way to go.

@The Steam Whisperer What's the max turndown for that nifty ECM burner? Is it all internal or does it need a modulating valve to go with it?

The Steam Whisperer

You'd have to check the data on the turn down. WE use a Honeywell T775 (?) for our applications because we can do direct outdoor reset of the burner output for our orificed 2 pipe systems or modulate to a fixed pressure. The mod signal into the burner, IIRC, is 4 to 20 ma. The burner is all self contained.. only needs an input signal. Heat timer also makes a mod control too for fixed pressure modulating.