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Hopefully this will the one that lasts..System 2000 Ascent EK1 vs Buderus G115WS

Audrey5
Audrey5 Member Posts: 6
edited July 13 in Oil Heating
Hi. I am having a very hard time making this decision myself. I cant afford to make a mistake really as I just purchased the 2 BR /1 BA small house less than a year ago in MA. I have had a few quotes on both systems and both sound great. I currently have Vaillant with the hot water inside. I thought switching to an indirect was the way to go in case I sell it down the road/need more hot water myself. I don't use a lot really. The quotes are for the System 2000 itself and the Buderus is with the Superstor tank. I have read a lot of these posts here and other sites. Looked at the brochures, etc. I really liked the features of the EK system where there's an emergency override switch valve and doesn't run unless you need heat and/or hot water like my current does. However, I am concerned about a few things?
-Are the ceramic and steel materials durable/last (no cracking) as this seems so different than the others. If the ceramic cracked somehow, Is it fixable?
-Having a written warranty so I know what is covered under the limited lifetime warranty or other system.
- Would it be beneficial to get a separate tank even though you lose 5-10% efficiency as I believe someone said on another post. What if the household grows to 3 people.

I could really use some peace of mind on which way I should go. And that either machine will last at least 20+ and hoping for 30+ years here. Never owned before and can't afford a lot of service calls.

This community is wonderful! Highly educated in their trade/very helpful. And would greatly appreciate any responses!

Thank you so much.
-Audrey

Comments

  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,154
    I’d go with Energy Kinetics.
    Creative Solutions Plumbing & Heating LLC
    Lic #12683
    Co-Owners: Fred Drescher, Jr & Eliezer "Ezzy" Travis
    201.499.0223
    Audrey5Roger
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,650
    The Ascent is for replacement of tankless coil boilers, maybe you meant the EK-1 Frontier? That would get my vote, although I like the EK-1 Resolute even more. Buderus makes a fine boiler but I like the EK stuff more. Reliable, efficient and easy to service. 
    Audrey5Roger
  • Audrey5
    Audrey5 Member Posts: 6
    Hi Super tech, it definitely was the Ascent they quoted me on.  It's 950 sf house.  Thank you for your feedback.
    Thank you EzzyT. 
    This helps me.... honestly never heard of EK until now.
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 63
    Don't worry about resell value when it comes to the indirect, I doubt anywhere cares (and definitely doubt anyone cares enough to pay you more than you spent on it). Also, you have a 1 BA house, your peak hot water needs will be low, even if your household expands. Consider pricing out a separate tank water heater.
  • Roger
    Roger Member Posts: 196
    Thank you for your very supportive comments, @EzzyT and @SuperTech , and for your questions, @Audrey5 .

    We say that System 2000 is a 30 year boiler (even though we've been around since 1979 and know many of the earliest systems are still in operation). And our current generation of boilers have improved substantially through over four decades of innovation including feedback from the field. This is the same specially formulated steel pressure vessel and technology that goes into the Ascent Combi you mentioned.

    The warranty can be found on our website. In the case that any components need to be replaced, we keep a deep inventory in stock and most items are industry standard, available through wholesale distribution, or can be bypassed for emergency heat. The combustion chamber on the Ascent Combi is a specially formulated high temperature stainless steel, and the ceramic insulation used in the burner door was upgraded 20 years ago and has a very durable track record and can be replaced if ever damaged.

    Our systems with heavily insulated tanks and Energy Manager controls are even more efficient that the Ascent Combi design, so if you're interested in the best savings and even more hot water, the System 2000 Frontier or the Resolute RT would be ideal. These systems are more efficient because the design with a plate heat exchanger for hot water allows the system to "thermally purge" and pump the heat remaining in the boiler into the hot water tank or heating system so no energy is left wasted in a hot boiler when it is not running. This can't be done with tanks with coils because when the tank is heated, the coil is immersed in hot water; the plate heat exchanger heats the tank from the top down and can finish early and use the heat remaining in the boiler to finish heating the tank.

    Please let us know if we can help, or post further questions here. We also have a territory manager in your area that can coordinate with you or your heating professional if you'd like.

    Best,
    Roger
    President
    Energy Kinetics, Inc.
    Robert O'BrienSuperTech
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,564
    @Audrey5 , as long as both systems are properly installed, you can't go wrong either way.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Roger
  • Audrey5
    Audrey5 Member Posts: 6
    Hi Roger, I really appreciate your comments and everyone's.  So it sounds as though the Ascent has a plate heat exchanger though the indirect tank will give instant hot water but it doesn't have Energy Manager controls, which is what does the purge for energy savings.  

    The brochure says you just need to turn the faucet on/off two time to tell Ascent model to kick in without the tank and it'll warm itself up.  

    I really appreciate everyone's feedback !  I feel EK has really great support and part inventory. This all makes me feel better. 

    Thank you
    Audrey
    SuperTech
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,176
    EK gets my support. Better factory support.
    RogerszwedjSuperTech
  • Roger
    Roger Member Posts: 196
    Thank you, @Audrey5 (and @EBEBRATT-Ed )!

    You're correct, Audrey, the Ascent Combi does not have the Energy Manager or thermal purge, so the savings are not as significant as our other systems with thermal purge.

    The Ascent Combi has a few hot water modes, with the most efficient as On Demand. In Smart Learning modes (or in the winter when the boiler may be warm from heating), hot water can be instantaneous. Any time you pump a hot water fixture twice quickly in succession, it signals the Ascent Combi that hot water is needed and it quickly responds. This may be particularly helpful in the On Demand mode, although there still may be a delay getting the hot water from the boiler to the fixture through your homes hot water piping.

    Roger
    President
    Energy Kinetics, Inc.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,027
    Steamhead said:

    @Audrey5 , as long as both systems are properly installed, you can't go wrong either way.

    A 950 sq ft house and a Buderus sounds like a bad wasteful idea.

    steve
    SuperTech
  • Ctoilman
    Ctoilman Member Posts: 92
    A small Buderus with a stainless indirect would be my choice.  The installer plays a HUGE role in the boilers success, so pay careful attention to that....it could save you lots of issues later on down the road.
    Audrey5
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,650
    Ctoilman said:
    A small Buderus with a stainless indirect would be my choice.  The installer plays a HUGE role in the boilers success, so pay careful attention to that....it could save you lots of issues later on down the road.
    Even the smallest Buderus would be too big for that house. The EK-1 Frontier would be my choice.  The thermal purge of the energy manager makes sure that nothing is wasted or lost due to oversizing and short cycling.  I'd want the storage tank and plate heat exchanger, if space is a concern I'd go with the stackable EK-1. 
    Roger
  • Ctoilman
    Ctoilman Member Posts: 92
    No thanks on the plate heat exchanger with unknown domestic water quality, not an issue with an indirect tank
  • Roger
    Roger Member Posts: 196
    edited July 14
    Thank you all for your comments.
    For reference, a scale stopper or full water treatment system can keep the minerals in solution and prevent fouling so the plate heat exchanger can stay clean for years to come.
    In 2021, we introduced a simple and profound advancement in water heating technology: Sealix permanent non-stick plate heat exchanger surfaces prevent lime and mineral build up for exceptional long term performance in hard water applications.
    Roger
    President
    Energy Kinetics, Inc.
    Robert O'Brien
  • BDR529
    BDR529 Member Posts: 187
    Standard Buderus 115 (The WS is an upfired version) with (Stainless Steel) Heat Flow indirect. You could mug someone with the anode out of the Heat Flow. Super Stor has no anode however, stainless as well. Water quality nowadays you need an anode.

    Honeywell controls have multiple supply houses for parts. Stay away from outside reset and you will be fine.

    Only question is chimney Liner condition.

  • Audrey5
    Audrey5 Member Posts: 6
    edited July 15
    @BDR529, there is a slight crack in clay liner above attic line.  I thought because it's closer to the top of chimney, I should be fine.  I know stainless liners are expensive. MA is an expensive state to live in.  
    I have been quoted both G115-3 and G115Ws-3. I'm not sure what upfired 'means' but Buderus website made no distinction between the two. I thought only WS is in production now.
    Robert O'Brien
  • BDR529
    BDR529 Member Posts: 187
    The WS has higher firing rate, more BTU's. Simply put, Reclibrate the burner.

    Unless you can get ride of the chimney and go with direct vent you will have to do a liner.
    Both those units will have much lower stack temps therefore, the condesing flue gasses will eat the old clay liner rather quickly.



  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,340
    Audrey5 said:

    @BDR529, there is a slight crack in clay liner above attic line.  I thought because it's closer to the top of chimney, I should be fine.  I know stainless liners are expensive. MA is an expensive state to live in.  
    I have been quoted both G115-3 and G115Ws-3. I'm not sure what upfired 'means' but Buderus website made no distinction between the two. I thought only WS is in production now.

    You're correct, G115WS is the replacement for G115.
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  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,732
    I prefer the Buderus for is cast iron push nipple construction . I know it would out last the steel used today (post 1963)...I like the positive draft for combustion , I would also recommend the Riello burner . It is a good reliable combination .
    I am not a fan of stainless indirects . I seen too many leak over the years. Love the idea but stainless is hard to weld and with lack of quality control I avoid them ..Buderus made some nice glass lined which yes has a anole rod that needs to be checked . I admit I have not checked my 42gallon . Shame on me.

    I like to see an outdoor reset control used on most of the systems unless the home uses large radiators .

    And yes a stainless liner would be needed with small efficient boilers ... 7' tile liners with outside chimneys . The chimney would be too cold for the output the hot gasses would condense inside the chimney . I would recommend a liner for simplicity over a direct vent or power venter . Less to go wrong
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
  • Audrey5
    Audrey5 Member Posts: 6
    @BDR529 Well that's bad news and adds a pretty penny to the quote...Not what I want to hear.  THis is all technical stuff.   Wish I didn't look..


  • Audrey5
    Audrey5 Member Posts: 6
    @Big Ed_4  I have no idea what you just said but the liner but that you are in agreement a stainless liner is needed. Guessing for CO2 issues.  The chimney built into the house and not on the outside.  I guess I should get requoted ... Or is it a separate guy.  

    Thank you and BRD529 for taking your time to respond and helping me stay safe.   I have to deal with it and take care of it now I guess.   
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 63
    @Audrey5 I’d talk to a diverse group of contractors, it might be time to switch fuels based on the chimney work, house size, oil cost, etc. 
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,732
    edited July 19
    You would need a chimney liner for gas equipment as well as oil . Down sizing to an efficient proper size unit the standard chimney flue used back in the day was too large . It is important to maintain temperature on flue gases to the end of the chimney . If not the flue gas will condense . There is no cheap way out on your choices .
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
  • szwedj
    szwedj Member Posts: 37
    As an alternative to stainless steel liners, Energy Kinetics offers dilution air vented boilers that can sidewall vent in polypropylene or chimney vent. These models include the Resolute and Ascent Plus Combi for oilheat or gas, and the Accel CS for gas. In general, polypropylene liners are more affordable, and faster and easier to install that stainless liners.

    Some areas seem to have good chimney construction and others not so much – your local heating professional may have more insight with their experience in your area.

    For reference, the challenge with chimneys is that a properly constructed chimney will have about a ½” air gap around the outside of the terracotta liner (every chimney needs a liner, whether masonry, stainless steel, polypropylene, or other – it cannot be exposed brick or stone). The air gap makes it a “low mass” chimney that will heat up and develop draft quickly. This cannot be seen through visual inspection. This means that you can often tell if a chimney needs a new liner (broken pieces of the liner at the chimney base and other signs of damage like efflorescence/salts causing white staining on the brickwork and mortar, loose mortar joints, tiles, or bricks, etc.), but it is very difficult to confirm that a chimney is “good” without knowing if the air gap is present. Running the appliance and chimney from a cold start and checking for negative draft is a good indicator on the day of the test.

    Regards,
    Joe Szwed
    Energy Kinetics
    Joe Szwed
    Energy Kinetics
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