Again, PVC pipe certified for use as venting material?
PVC pipe certified for use as venting material?
Staying with PVC would be so much easier
thanks
Comments
-
Ayers has a good selection up north. Ferguson’s can supply it in VA but shipping is $$$.Really a chicken or the egg problem. If the municipal inspection authorities all required it then it would be available everywhere. Since they don’t or at least have delayed adoption it’s hard to fine.This old house had a bunch of stories two year ago about the importance of using the System 1738 PVC but I’ve noticed all their projects since then are standard PVC. Even in MA where I thought it was required.0
-
Apparently there’s an exemption if the manufacturer lists their product as approved for heating
I can sort of understand for boilers, we do Bosch boilers. But for warm air furnaces, it seems a little silly0 -
@GW
I just did my code update class 2 weeks ago in MA.
There are new code regulations that took effect on 4/30/21 that address this issue.
To use PVC it has to be listed and approved on the state web site. IPEX (I think) is the only approved PVC.
and the specific brand of pvc has to be listed by the appliance mfg.
existing pvc venting (buried in a wall) can be reused if changing the appliance.
See the attached
They said for the first time ever the state board leadership is being run by non-plumbers. Not a good thing JMHO
3 -
Thanks Ed I’ll try and locate the Ipex0
-
-
In Europe PVC as a venting methode is against Installation Instruction,Code and Industrie standards for a reason...At a ISH Trade show approx 14 years ago the then manufacturer of Triangle Tubes Heat exchanger explained that the off-leaching of Chlorides from the PVC will have devastating affects on the Stainless...GW said:Saw this post from 2005,
PVC pipe certified for use as venting material?
Any news on this in the last 16 years? Massachusetts is finally getting this on the books.I called the local vendor (Webb, not a small supply chain) last week, they didn’t even stock adapters (common pvc diameter to Centrotherm)
Staying with PVC would be so much easier
thanks
BTW...Manufacturers such as Chalotte Pipe Do not approve to use PVC to Vent Appliances.
I my opinion PVC is just another "Plexivent" in the making..
We just use Centrotherm/Ipex..Sorry you are having a hard time getting the Materials.0 -
This.Derheatmeister said:BTW...Manufacturers such as Chalotte Pipe Do not approve to use PVC to Vent Appliances.
I my opinion PVC is just another "Plexivent" in the making..All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Ever since our little gas event in the Merrimack Valley, there isn't a inspector that will allow us to use PVC. I generally tend to use a lot of Corzan schedule 80 PVC.0
-
I have often wondered about the acidic water leaching clorides out of the PVC.
And it seems that a drip trap on the exhaust would have kept more condensate out of the burner area.
FAF's do this on their inducer/exhaust fans to keep the water out of the wheel housing.0 -
IPEX has tested their PVC for venting
IPEX PVC says"approved and listed for venting " stamped on the pipe. If you need higher temps don't use it use CPVC (which they also make) or something else.
This is from the IPEX web site. I have posted this before:
bUL 1738 certified vent system for Categories II and IV gas burning appliances
Rated for flue gas temperatures up to 149°F (65°C)
Pipe, fittings, cement, and venting accessories, sizes include 2”, 3”, and 4”
The use of plastic venting systems on gas fired water heaters, furnaces and boilers has undergone a significant change. The NFPA 54-18 and IFGC-18 Fuel Gas Codes now recognize the UL 1738 venting standard across the United States.
The safety concern today is in the use of plumbing Solid Wall Schedule 40 or Foam Core DWV pipe and fittings in FGV applications. These products were never intended to be used in FGV applications, but they have been chosen because they are often the least expensive materials available.
Some manufacturers of these products have stated repeatedly that these products are not designed for FGV. These products do not meet the key performance requirements nor most of the material requirements of UL 1738. Simply put, plumbing DWV products are NOT designed to meet the life safety standards of FGV applications.
System 1738 Flue Gas Venting offers a full range of pipe, fittings and termination components that are manufactured from an engineered PVC compound, rated for a maximum flue gas temperature of 149˚F and that are fully certified to the rigorous requirements of UL 1738 venting standard for gas-burning appliances, Categories II and IV.
tout_2
Venting. ReInvented.™
Speak to an Expert
Get the specifics!
See how System 1738 can work for you with the help of one of our experts!
2 -
One of the benefits that Condensate offers is that it helps clean the Heat excharger which as we all know helps to keep the Efficiency up.JUGHNE said:I have often wondered about the acidic water leaching clorides out of the PVC.
And it seems that a drip trap on the exhaust would have kept more condensate out of the burner area.
FAF's do this on their inducer/exhaust fans to keep the water out of the wheel housing.0 -
I have the Intertek product catalog, but haven't got around to reading it. I guess on cat IV installations, one would only have to use it on the flue and PVC on the air intake. Just askin'.0
-
PVC on the intake is fine0
-
Lyle {pheloa} Carter said:Ever since our little gas event in the Merrimack Valley, there isn't a inspector that will allow us to use PVC. I generally tend to use a lot of Corzan schedule 80 PVC.
If you are in Massachusetts, before May 1, 2021 there isn’t an inspector that was allowed to legally tell you that you couldn’t use PVC. Any inspector that wasn’t allowing you to use PVC before May 1 was wrong. If you appealed any of their decisions to the board, the board would have had to rule in your favor. Inspectors don’t make the rules.
0 -
Pvc did not suddenly become garbage May 1st 2021 in Massachusetts.many inspectors understood it was an unsafe product before the fight with the lawyers was done. I am thrilled to see this finally get passed. I have also seen as many warm air furnace vents falling apart as hydronic boiler and water heater vents.Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating0 -
As I posted above Ipex PVC is approved and listed for venting gas appliances. In MA, now, it also has to be listed in the appliance instructions to use it0
-
Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating0 -
According to certification standards of a I & O certified manual, the manufacturer cannot specify a make. They can only specify vent material that complies with a certain standard. Presently Ipex and Royal have PVC S636 pipe that meets the standard. Both systems use SCH 40 PVC pipe that has a different color and labelling. The 149F limit comes from a standard for SCH 40 pipe and hot water. It is 75 PSI at a maximum of 149F.0
-
If your vent is subject to 75 psig you have bigger problems.0
-
Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.
0 -
CBRob said:
Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.
Triangle tubes Concentric is not a real concentric,It takes two PVC pipes and converts it to a concentric just prior to the final termination..CBRob said:Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.
Concentric Venting Systems such as the Viessmann/Centotherm/Innoflue are concentric from the Boiler all the way to the final destination,The Portion that is used for the Exhaust on the Concentric venting systems is made of an approved polypropylene material.
BTW...Due to exhaust gas recirculation issues we no longer install Concentric Venting systems.2 -
Derheatmeister said:
Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
Triangle tubes Concentric is not a real concentric,It takes two PVC pipes and converts it to a concentric just prior to the final termination.. Concentric Venting Systems such as the Viessmann/Centotherm/Innoflue are concentric from the Boiler all the way to the final destination,The Portion that is used for the Exhaust on the Concentric venting systems is made of an approved polypropylene material. BTW...Due to exhaust gas recirculation issues we no longer install Concentric Venting systems.
I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.
No concentric vents at all.
Do you terminate vents outside with the typical snorkel assembly?
Any flush mount vent that you like?
0 -
Henry said:According to certification standards of a I & O certified manual, the manufacturer cannot specify a make. They can only specify vent material that complies with a certain standard. Presently Ipex and Royal have PVC S636 pipe that meets the standard. Both systems use SCH 40 PVC pipe that has a different color and labelling. The 149F limit comes from a standard for SCH 40 pipe and hot water. It is 75 PSI at a maximum of 149F.0
-
Interesting..CBRob said:Derheatmeister said:CBRob said:Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.
Triangle tubes Concentric is not a real concentric,It takes two PVC pipes and converts it to a concentric just prior to the final termination..CBRob said:Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.
Concentric Venting Systems such as the Viessmann/Centotherm/Innoflue are concentric from the Boiler all the way to the final destination,The Portion that is used for the Exhaust on the Concentric venting systems is made of an approved polypropylene material.
BTW...Due to exhaust gas recirculation issues we no longer install Concentric Venting systems.
No concentric vents at all.
Do you terminate vents outside with the typical snorkel assembly?
Any flush mount vent that you like?
Over the years we just have seen way to many problems associated with the Concentric venting systems which can regurgitate it's own exhaust..
We Just use two pipes..One Polypro Centrotherm for the Exhaust and the other PVC pipe or a preexisting duct/vent for the Intake.
We use a Snorkel assembly in very rare occasions when we have to overcome anticipated snow levels/Snow drifts.
Due to the possiblity of the condensate freezing in the exhaust we do try to keep Snorkeling short
The key is to have a large spread between the Intake and exhaust to avoid problems.
However..Drawing air from the roof in combination with side wall vent is not advised.
Also exhausting into prevailing winds and drawing combustion air from the opposite side of the building can also cause problems(different pressure zones).
Coming up with a good Venting system can be an art..
0 -
How can you tell when you are having problems with venting?
Seems like all the modern boilers just correct themselves.
Do you see it when doing a flu gas analysis?
I'm going to look further into the pp venting.
Is existing z Vent still a good option to tie into as long as it's not leaking?0 -
I think most appliances are pretty rudimentary and have a fixed mixture adjustment. Bad venting I think would cause the weird intermittent problems you see posted here sometimes like it just locks out once every couple months.0
-
You can tell when you see signs of Corrosion to the boiler Cabinet i.e Gasvalves starting to tarnish,Wiring starting to corrode..Frequent No Heat Calls with Lockups/ Comtaminated Rods..When you see these signs the damage is allready done.CBRob said:How can you tell when you are having problems with venting?
Seems like all the modern boilers just correct themselves.
Do you see it when doing a flu gas analysis?
I'm going to look further into the pp venting.
Is existing z Vent still a good option to tie into as long as it's not leaking?
As a standard service we stick our CO monitor (Sensorcon Inspector) in the closed Boiler cabinet while the boiler is fired to check for Exhaust Gas Recirculation.
No Modern Residental boiler that i Know of can correct itsself when it is subjected to these conditions..
That is a good idea though, Imagine..You hook up a Macurco CM-6 to the boiler and the boiler shuts down when it sees that it is subject to Carbon Monoxide.
I am guessing that we would be very busy correcting Venting Issues..
Yes.. Stainless Z vent is good to tie into given the Gaskets are not compromised and the proper transfer fitting is used.1 -
I was thinking more an oxygen sensor and a way for the microcontroller to vary the mixture...0
-
@Derheatmeister
Thanks for the explanation.
I imagine it is not the CO that is causing the problems but the other stuff in the exhaust gas that is corrosive.
When I get myself an analyzer I'll have to experiment with the intake vent on some of the set-ups I work with.
0 -
PVC or other material can be used for combustion air intake, just like we use PVC on intake air for category IV boilers while using CPVC for exhaust.0
-
Don't forget, its not just the plastic, its also the air they put in the pvc like cell core. It has insulating properties that allow it to overheat, discolor and change shape. Of course you could skip the vent pipe altogether like a landlord I saw who had 3 atmospheric water heaters unvented in a basement.0
-
Foam core PVC was never allowed. Note CPVC is not allowed either now.Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating0 -
Charlie from wmass said:Foam core PVC was never allowed. Note CPVC is not allowed either now.0
-
Thanks all we are doing Centrotherm these days1
-
In VA I priced the S636/1738 IPEX PVC concentric vent and 10' of Exhaust/Supply pipe (2ea) with 4 fittings each of 90s/45s. It was over $500! Fittings are 6X standard Sch40 solid core fittings. Not sure it is worth it when the manufacturer still accepts solid core Sch40 pipe.0
-
tocker said:In VA I priced the S636/1738 IPEX PVC concentric vent and 10' of Exhaust/Supply pipe (2ea) with 4 fittings each of 90s/45s. It was over $500! Fittings are 6X standard Sch40 solid core fittings. Not sure it is worth it when the manufacturer still accepts solid core Sch40 pipe.
Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating0 -
I just find conversations like this quite interesting. What it boils down to is.... Here in the USA, we are still the richest country in the world and yet when it comes to venting what can be deadly equipment in our homes, we say we can only afford cheap materials that not a single other country considers to be safe. We are so far off the rails, that the train is sitting at the bottom of the ocean.
Charlie from wmass.....I'm sure you've been in the position too where you go into a "comfortable" family's own home....spouses, children and all.... and find unsafe equipment. You tell the owners and they refuse to fix it......money matters more to them than thier own spouses and children.
Dead people are cheaper.To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.1 -
You mean where forced air is king because it's cheap and works "good enough" when installed poorly?The Steam Whisperer said:I just find conversations like this quite interesting. What it boils down to is.... Here in the USA, we are still the richest country in the world and yet when it comes to venting what can be deadly equipment in our homes, we say we can only afford cheap materials that not a single other country considers to be safe. We are so far off the rails, that the train is sitting at the bottom of the ocean.
Charlie from wmass.....I'm sure you've been in the position too where you go into a "comfortable" family's own home....spouses, children and all.... and find unsafe equipment. You tell the owners and they refuse to fix it......money matters more to them than thier own spouses and children.
Dead people are cheaper.Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
1 -
Y’all are funny- just when you think you think you know how to spend other people’s money, it’s a downhill spiral. If it’s code complaint, it’s good. Been at this since the 80s, never heard of anything even close to this being a problem.I’ve seen old 26 gg vent pipe hanging by threads. I’ve seen 30 gg used as vent pipe. And we’ve all see a mess of wild looking jollopy vent pictures on the Facebook pagesWhat if a piece of csst gets nuked from a lightning strike, house blows up? It was all legal when it was installed. Oh you don’t use csst? How about the flex connector behind the gas range? Stuff happens, we can’t try and save the world with our superior methods of tradesmanship.What if a water heater —-ahh you know the thing/ I could rattle off 100 scenarios where someone ends up dead. I can die on my drive home. Let’s all live1
-
Gary, your comments still don't address what I was talking about......we supposedly "can't afford" to spend the money to make our homes up to the same equipment safety standards that are used in every other developed country.To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.1
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.3K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 53 Biomass
- 422 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 90 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.4K Gas Heating
- 100 Geothermal
- 156 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.4K Oil Heating
- 63 Pipe Deterioration
- 916 Plumbing
- 6K Radiant Heating
- 381 Solar
- 14.9K Strictly Steam
- 3.3K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 41 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements