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Again, PVC pipe certified for use as venting material?

GW
GW Member Posts: 4,232
Saw this post from 2005, 

PVC pipe certified for use as venting material?


Any news on this in the last 16 years? Massachusetts is finally getting this on the books. 

I called the local vendor (Webb, not a small supply chain) last week, they didn’t even stock adapters (common pvc diameter to Centrotherm)

Staying with PVC would be so much easier

thanks 
Gary Wilson
Wilson Services, Inc
Northampton, MA
[email protected]
«1

Comments

  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 361
    Ayers has a good selection up north. Ferguson’s can supply it in VA but shipping is $$$. 

    Really a chicken or the egg problem. If the municipal inspection authorities all required it then it would be available everywhere.  Since they don’t or at least have delayed adoption it’s hard to fine.
    This old house had a bunch of stories two year ago about the importance of using the System 1738 PVC but I’ve noticed all their projects since then are standard PVC.  Even in MA where I thought it was required. 
    tocker
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,232
    Apparently there’s an exemption if the manufacturer lists their product as approved for heating 

    I can sort of understand for boilers, we do Bosch boilers. But for warm air furnaces, it seems a little silly
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,685
    @GW

    I just did my code update class 2 weeks ago in MA.

    There are new code regulations that took effect on 4/30/21 that address this issue.

    To use PVC it has to be listed and approved on the state web site. IPEX (I think) is the only approved PVC.
    and the specific brand of pvc has to be listed by the appliance mfg.

    existing pvc venting (buried in a wall) can be reused if changing the appliance.

    See the attached

    They said for the first time ever the state board leadership is being run by non-plumbers. Not a good thing JMHO

    HVACNUTGWSuperTech
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,232
    Thanks Ed I’ll try and locate the Ipex
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,685
    @GW

    Independent Pipe
    134 Addison Road
    Windsor, Ct.
    860-243-8500

    Don't know if anyone else has it
    GWDerheatmeister
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,107
    GW said:

    Saw this post from 2005, 

    PVC pipe certified for use as venting material?


    Any news on this in the last 16 years? Massachusetts is finally getting this on the books. 

    I called the local vendor (Webb, not a small supply chain) last week, they didn’t even stock adapters (common pvc diameter to Centrotherm)

    Staying with PVC would be so much easier

    thanks 
    In Europe PVC as a venting methode is against Installation Instruction,Code and Industrie standards for a reason...At a ISH Trade show approx 14 years ago the then manufacturer of Triangle Tubes Heat exchanger explained that the off-leaching of Chlorides from the PVC will have devastating affects on the Stainless...
    BTW...Manufacturers such as Chalotte Pipe Do not approve to use PVC to Vent Appliances.
    I my opinion PVC is just another "Plexivent" in the making.. :s
    We just use Centrotherm/Ipex..Sorry you are having a hard time getting the Materials.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,764

    BTW...Manufacturers such as Chalotte Pipe Do not approve to use PVC to Vent Appliances.
    I my opinion PVC is just another "Plexivent" in the making.. :s

    This.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Lyle {pheloa} Carter
    Lyle {pheloa} Carter Member Posts: 35
    Ever since our little gas event in the Merrimack Valley, there isn't a inspector that will allow us to use PVC. I generally tend to use a lot of Corzan schedule 80 PVC.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,684
    I have often wondered about the acidic water leaching clorides out of the PVC.
    And it seems that a drip trap on the exhaust would have kept more condensate out of the burner area.

    FAF's do this on their inducer/exhaust fans to keep the water out of the wheel housing.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,685
    edited June 14
    IPEX has tested their PVC for venting


    IPEX PVC says"approved and listed for venting " stamped on the pipe. If you need higher temps don't use it use CPVC (which they also make) or something else.

    This is from the IPEX web site. I have posted this before:


    bUL 1738 certified vent system for Categories II and IV gas burning appliances
    Rated for flue gas temperatures up to 149°F (65°C)
    Pipe, fittings, cement, and venting accessories, sizes include 2”, 3”, and 4”


    The use of plastic venting systems on gas fired water heaters, furnaces and boilers has undergone a significant change. The NFPA 54-18 and IFGC-18 Fuel Gas Codes now recognize the UL 1738 venting standard across the United States.

    The safety concern today is in the use of plumbing Solid Wall Schedule 40 or Foam Core DWV pipe and fittings in FGV applications. These products were never intended to be used in FGV applications, but they have been chosen because they are often the least expensive materials available.

    Some manufacturers of these products have stated repeatedly that these products are not designed for FGV. These products do not meet the key performance requirements nor most of the material requirements of UL 1738. Simply put, plumbing DWV products are NOT designed to meet the life safety standards of FGV applications.

    System 1738 Flue Gas Venting offers a full range of pipe, fittings and termination components that are manufactured from an engineered PVC compound, rated for a maximum flue gas temperature of 149˚F and that are fully certified to the rigorous requirements of UL 1738 venting standard for gas-burning appliances, Categories II and IV.

    tout_2
    Venting. ReInvented.™
    Speak to an Expert

    Get the specifics!

    See how System 1738 can work for you with the help of one of our experts!



    GWPC7060
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,107
    JUGHNE said:

    I have often wondered about the acidic water leaching clorides out of the PVC.
    And it seems that a drip trap on the exhaust would have kept more condensate out of the burner area.

    FAF's do this on their inducer/exhaust fans to keep the water out of the wheel housing.

    One of the benefits that Condensate offers is that it helps clean the Heat excharger which as we all know helps to keep the Efficiency up.
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,344
    I have the Intertek product catalog, but haven't got around to reading it. I guess on cat IV installations, one would only have to use it on the flue and PVC on the air intake. Just askin'.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,685
    PVC on the intake is fine
  • fricard
    fricard Member Posts: 18
    Ever since our little gas event in the Merrimack Valley, there isn't a inspector that will allow us to use PVC. I generally tend to use a lot of Corzan schedule 80 PVC.

    If you are in Massachusetts, before May 1, 2021 there isn’t an inspector that was allowed to legally tell you that you couldn’t use PVC. Any inspector that wasn’t allowing you to use PVC before May 1 was wrong. If you appealed any of their decisions to the board, the board would have had to rule in your favor. Inspectors don’t make the rules. 

    Charlie from wmass
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,195
    Pvc did not suddenly become garbage May 1st 2021 in Massachusetts.many inspectors understood it was an unsafe product before the fight with the lawyers was done. I am thrilled to see this finally get passed. I have also seen as many warm air furnace vents falling apart as hydronic boiler and water heater vents.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,685
    As I posted above Ipex PVC is approved and listed for venting gas appliances. In MA, now, it also has to be listed in the appliance instructions to use it
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 988
    According to certification standards of a I & O certified manual, the manufacturer cannot specify a make. They can only specify vent material that complies with a certain standard. Presently Ipex and Royal have PVC S636 pipe that meets the standard. Both systems use SCH 40 PVC pipe that has a different color and labelling. The 149F limit comes from a standard for SCH 40 pipe and hot water. It is 75 PSI at a maximum of 149F.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 3,675
    If your vent is subject to 75 psig you have bigger problems.
  • CBRob
    CBRob Member Posts: 214
    Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
    I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.


  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,107
    CBRob said:

    Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
    I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.


    CBRob said:

    Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
    I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.


    Triangle tubes Concentric is not a real concentric,It takes two PVC pipes and converts it to a concentric just prior to the final termination..
    Concentric Venting Systems such as the Viessmann/Centotherm/Innoflue are concentric from the Boiler all the way to the final destination,The Portion that is used for the Exhaust on the Concentric venting systems is made of an approved polypropylene material.
    BTW...Due to exhaust gas recirculation issues we no longer install Concentric Venting systems.
    SuperTechkcopp
  • CBRob
    CBRob Member Posts: 214
    Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
    I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.


    Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
    I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.


    Triangle tubes Concentric is not a real concentric,It takes two PVC pipes and converts it to a concentric just prior to the final termination.. Concentric Venting Systems such as the Viessmann/Centotherm/Innoflue are concentric from the Boiler all the way to the final destination,The Portion that is used for the Exhaust on the Concentric venting systems is made of an approved polypropylene material. BTW...Due to exhaust gas recirculation issues we no longer install Concentric Venting systems.
    Interesting..
    No concentric vents at all. 
    Do you terminate vents outside with the typical snorkel assembly?
    Any flush mount vent that you like?


  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 361
    edited June 27
    Henry said:
    According to certification standards of a I & O certified manual, the manufacturer cannot specify a make. They can only specify vent material that complies with a certain standard. Presently Ipex and Royal have PVC S636 pipe that meets the standard. Both systems use SCH 40 PVC pipe that has a different color and labelling. The 149F limit comes from a standard for SCH 40 pipe and hot water. It is 75 PSI at a maximum of 149F.
    ULC S636 is the Canadian standard for PVC and CPVC vent pipe. UL1738 is the US standard for pvc vent pipe; trade name is System 1738 which conforms to the ratings Henry specified. 



  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,107
    CBRob said:



    CBRob said:

    Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
    I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.


    CBRob said:

    Are concentric vents still generally acceptable for venting modcon boilers?
    I didn't see any mention of them in the latest triangle tube vent supplement.


    Triangle tubes Concentric is not a real concentric,It takes two PVC pipes and converts it to a concentric just prior to the final termination..
    Concentric Venting Systems such as the Viessmann/Centotherm/Innoflue are concentric from the Boiler all the way to the final destination,The Portion that is used for the Exhaust on the Concentric venting systems is made of an approved polypropylene material.
    BTW...Due to exhaust gas recirculation issues we no longer install Concentric Venting systems.

    Interesting..
    No concentric vents at all. 
    Do you terminate vents outside with the typical snorkel assembly?
    Any flush mount vent that you like?




    Over the years we just have seen way to many problems associated with the Concentric venting systems which can regurgitate it's own exhaust..
    We Just use two pipes..One Polypro Centrotherm for the Exhaust and the other PVC pipe or a preexisting duct/vent for the Intake.
    We use a Snorkel assembly in very rare occasions when we have to overcome anticipated snow levels/Snow drifts.
    Due to the possiblity of the condensate freezing in the exhaust we do try to keep Snorkeling short
    The key is to have a large spread between the Intake and exhaust to avoid problems.
    However..Drawing air from the roof in combination with side wall vent is not advised.
    Also exhausting into prevailing winds and drawing combustion air from the opposite side of the building can also cause problems(different pressure zones).
    Coming up with a good Venting system can be an art..
  • CBRob
    CBRob Member Posts: 214
    edited June 28
    How can you tell when you are having problems with venting?
    Seems like all the modern boilers just correct themselves.
    Do you see it when doing a flu gas analysis?

    I'm going to look further into the pp venting.
    Is existing z Vent still a good option to tie into as long as it's not leaking?
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 3,675
    I think most appliances are pretty rudimentary and have a fixed mixture adjustment. Bad venting I think would cause the weird intermittent problems you see posted here sometimes like it just locks out once every couple months.
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,107
    CBRob said:

    How can you tell when you are having problems with venting?
    Seems like all the modern boilers just correct themselves.
    Do you see it when doing a flu gas analysis?

    I'm going to look further into the pp venting.
    Is existing z Vent still a good option to tie into as long as it's not leaking?

    You can tell when you see signs of Corrosion to the boiler Cabinet i.e Gasvalves starting to tarnish,Wiring starting to corrode..Frequent No Heat Calls with Lockups/ Comtaminated Rods..When you see these signs the damage is allready done.
    As a standard service we stick our CO monitor (Sensorcon Inspector) in the closed Boiler cabinet while the boiler is fired to check for Exhaust Gas Recirculation.
    No Modern Residental boiler that i Know of can correct itsself when it is subjected to these conditions..
    That is a good idea though, Imagine..You hook up a Macurco CM-6 to the boiler and the boiler shuts down when it sees that it is subject to Carbon Monoxide.
    I am guessing that we would be very busy correcting Venting Issues..

    Yes.. Stainless Z vent is good to tie into given the Gaskets are not compromised and the proper transfer fitting is used.
    CBRob
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 3,675
    I was thinking more an oxygen sensor and a way for the microcontroller to vary the mixture...
  • CBRob
    CBRob Member Posts: 214
    @Derheatmeister
    Thanks for the explanation.
    I imagine it is not the CO that is causing the problems but the other stuff in the exhaust gas that is corrosive.

    When I get myself an analyzer I'll have to experiment with the intake vent on some of the set-ups I work with.



  • markdelzell
    markdelzell Member Posts: 6
    PVC or other material can be used for combustion air intake, just like we use PVC on intake air for category IV boilers while using CPVC for exhaust.
  • Lance
    Lance Member Posts: 168
    Don't forget, its not just the plastic, its also the air they put in the pvc like cell core. It has insulating properties that allow it to overheat, discolor and change shape. Of course you could skip the vent pipe altogether like a landlord I saw who had 3 atmospheric water heaters unvented in a basement.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,195
    Foam core PVC was never allowed. Note CPVC is not allowed either now.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 361
    edited August 16
    Foam core PVC was never allowed. Note CPVC is not allowed either now.
    System 636 vent pipe standard is used in Canada with CPVC being the predominant materiel used due to its much higher temperature rating 
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,232
    Thanks all we are doing Centrotherm these days 
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
    PC7060
  • tocker
    tocker Member Posts: 18
    In VA I priced the S636/1738 IPEX PVC concentric vent and 10' of Exhaust/Supply pipe (2ea) with 4 fittings each of 90s/45s. It was over $500! Fittings are 6X standard Sch40 solid core fittings. Not sure it is worth it when the manufacturer still accepts solid core Sch40 pipe.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,195
    tocker said:
    In VA I priced the S636/1738 IPEX PVC concentric vent and 10' of Exhaust/Supply pipe (2ea) with 4 fittings each of 90s/45s. It was over $500! Fittings are 6X standard Sch40 solid core fittings. Not sure it is worth it when the manufacturer still accepts solid core Sch40 pipe.
     Cheaper than dead people

    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 741
    I just find conversations like this quite interesting. What it boils down to is.... Here in the USA, we are still the richest country in the world and yet when it comes to venting what can be deadly equipment in our homes, we say we can only afford cheap materials that not a single other country considers to be safe. We are so far off the rails, that the train is sitting at the bottom of the ocean.

    Charlie from wmass.....I'm sure you've been in the position too where you go into a "comfortable" family's own home....spouses, children and all.... and find unsafe equipment. You tell the owners and they refuse to fix it......money matters more to them than thier own spouses and children.

    Dead people are cheaper.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    Charlie from wmass
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,846

    I just find conversations like this quite interesting. What it boils down to is.... Here in the USA, we are still the richest country in the world and yet when it comes to venting what can be deadly equipment in our homes, we say we can only afford cheap materials that not a single other country considers to be safe. We are so far off the rails, that the train is sitting at the bottom of the ocean.

    Charlie from wmass.....I'm sure you've been in the position too where you go into a "comfortable" family's own home....spouses, children and all.... and find unsafe equipment. You tell the owners and they refuse to fix it......money matters more to them than thier own spouses and children.

    Dead people are cheaper.

    You mean where forced air is king because it's cheap and works "good enough" when installed poorly?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Charlie from wmass
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,232
    Y’all are funny- just when you think you think you know how to spend other people’s money, it’s a downhill spiral. If it’s code complaint, it’s good. Been at this since the 80s, never heard of anything even close to this being a problem. 

    I’ve seen old 26 gg vent pipe hanging by threads. I’ve seen 30 gg used as vent pipe. And we’ve all see a mess of wild looking jollopy vent pictures on the Facebook pages 

    What if a piece of csst gets nuked from a lightning strike, house blows up? It was all legal when it was installed. Oh you don’t use csst? How about the flex connector behind the gas range? Stuff happens, we can’t try and save the world with our superior methods of tradesmanship. 

    What if a water heater —-ahh you know the thing/ I could rattle off 100 scenarios where someone ends up dead. I can die on my drive home. Let’s all live 
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
    Charlie from wmassEBEBRATT-Ed
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 741
    Gary, your comments still don't address what I was talking about......we supposedly "can't afford" to spend the money to make our homes up to the same equipment safety standards that are used in every other developed country.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    Charlie from wmass