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Burnham V7 occasional "hard lockout"

joea99
joea99 Member Posts: 24
edited April 29 in THE MAIN WALL
Burnham V7 that experiences occasional "hard lockout" on the controller LCD display. Boiler then gets cold as the home is not occupied full time.

This appears to be an ignition issue as I can reset the controller and it will fire up, first try. There will be an odor and sometimes a puff of smoke from the flame inspection port on light off, which indicates it had some un burned fuel in the chamber.

I have replaced the electrodes (think they are set correctly) and replaced the HV transformer as it was original and the spring contacts appeared corroded. I put in new electrodes and a nozzle (why not?) at the same time and it ran perfectly for a few weeks. Now it has happened again, twice in a few days.

What could I be missing?

Comments

  • Ctoilman
    Ctoilman Member Posts: 63
    Seems the cad cell is not 'seeing' sufficient flame.  Does it have a good flame?  What is the cad cell ohm readings when it is running?  Hopefully less than 1300 ohms.  Fuel filter clean?
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,014
    Where is your oil tank/ Inside, outside? How is the fuel oil pump hooked up/ one pipe, two pipe? Any overhead oil lines?

    Has anyone done a combustion test?

    Could be an oil supply issue
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    As mentioned, it lights off every time I reset it, smokes for a bit due to un burned fuel in the chamber from previous ignition failure, runs clean.

    I've adjusted the electrode spacing and will see what happens.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,470
    @joea99 , you need to have a pro look at this. Where are you located? We might know someone..........
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    HVACNUT
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    edited April 30
    Kingston NY area. I know of a few pro's in the area.

    I looked into it a bit more and the error is simply "No Ignition". It is a Honeywell R7284U1004 with LCD display.

    It also lists possible errors as "No Ignition Check Igniter" and "No Ignition Check Cad Cell" which are pretty definitive.

    This suggests it might be a fuel issue after all. Clean filter, new (this season) nozzle. Pressure is 115, steady, but, bleeds down pretty slowly on shutoff. Seems a bit low. This is a 2 year old pump. There is no cutoff valve so valve on delay is 0. For some reason ignition trial is at 45 and now locked. Burner off delay was 45 I set it to 0.

    Old indoor tank with a sludge history so I have an extra Goldenrod fuel filter between the tank and the boiler, without media, to act as a water trap and visual indicator of fuel condition.

  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    edited April 30
    No one cares to comment further?

    As I research this more, I see the Beckett manual seem to imply all their AFG burners are capable of pre and post purge, but this one is not setup that way, since installed by the largest local professional outfit some 30 years ago. On my way to the house now to dig a little deeper and see if pre purge can be setup. I found that post purge is "necessary" and will re-enable that, even though it has always shut off and stopped firing at the same time, again, since install. So I think it is reasonable to infer this particular burner does not have the pre/post purge functionality.

    Considering calling in a local pro for this problem, but not if it is something I can easily solve.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,971
    joea99 said:

    No one cares to comment further? ...

    Intermittent lock outs are discussed and commented frequently on this website. You can search the website, or contact a pro.
    Sometimes they are easy to find, sometimes it requires all of one's skills, knowledge and experience (and special tools).

    "Bleeds down pretty slowly" for a one pipe fuel system indicates bad pump cut off. I'd have someone test the fuel unit properly. Why is the pressure at 115? That's an odd number-literally and practically.

    steve
  • Ctoilman
    Ctoilman Member Posts: 63
    Your problem has nothing to do with pre or post purge, those are luxuries of modern oil burner controls.....which you have by the way.  The Honeywell 7284U is the best primary safety control, it's the only one I use.  
    SuperTech
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24

    joea99 said:

    No one cares to comment further? ...

    Intermittent lock outs are discussed and commented frequently on this website. You can search the website, or contact a pro.
    Sometimes they are easy to find, sometimes it requires all of one's skills, knowledge and experience (and special tools).

    "Bleeds down pretty slowly" for a one pipe fuel system indicates bad pump cut off. I'd have someone test the fuel unit properly. Why is the pressure at 115? That's an odd number-literally and practically.

    I'll give search a try.

    The pump itself is only a couple years old. It's probably actually 110. It was set by the "pro" that replaced it. Looking over the specs for the boiler, a Burhham V74 (PV74WBT), it states, for that model the pressure should be set to 140 with a 1.1 nozzle. This guy was an "eyeball" tech (but did have a painted truck), no smoke or CO2 tests. Most around here do not bother. ("same nozzle, same air"). That is why I bought a Baccarach test kit on ebay years ago.

    I saw the pressure adjusted, seemed quite simple, but, may not want to tackle it myself.

    According to the history in the controller, there have been 12 light offs since I base lined it, all successful, with .02 (or maybe .2) second ignition time. My inability to recall the number shows why I've quit for the day.
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    edited April 30
    Ctoilman said:

    Your problem has nothing to do with pre or post purge, those are luxuries of modern oil burner controls.....which you have by the way.  The Honeywell 7284U is the best primary safety control, it's the only one I use.  

    Thanks.

    Only reason I was looking at pre puge was that some of what I read about burners and nozzles suggested one reason for poor light off was poor initial draft leading to inability to maintain a flame.

    Anyway I jumped the gun earlier by thinking it had to be a spark problem, realizing my error when I actually read the Honeywell sheet. Now it seems more likely to be fuel related issue as some stated earlier. Probably did not need to change the transformer, but glad I did as it all "looks fresh" now.

    I'm selling the place and prospective buyer has a 3 year old and a growing family. I would not want to leave them with a flaky unit. But as I mentioned in another reply, many of the service techs in this area only use the "MARK I" nose and eyeball to set things up. I avoid them, car dealers and contractors where ever possible, based on past experience.
  • Alan Welch
    Alan Welch Member Posts: 254
    Drive coupling slipping, pump strainer plugged , plugged line between tank and burner, cracked or missing retention head , target wall or front insulating board  falling into flame, combustion chamber full of sediment, too much excess air, blocked flue passages, blocked chimneybase are a few things to check off the top of my head.   As well as wrong nozzle size or type., electrode position etc.
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    edited April 30

    Drive coupling slipping, pump strainer plugged , plugged line between tank and burner, cracked or missing retention head , target wall or front insulating board  falling into flame, combustion chamber full of sediment, too much excess air, blocked flue passages, blocked chimneybase are a few things to check off the top of my head.   As well as wrong nozzle size or type., electrode position etc.

    Thanks. I just happen to have spare strainers and a drive coupling or two laying about. (This and my current residence have Burnham and Beckett AFG so I keep some spares having been bitten before by a weekend failure in winter).

    Pretty sure the drive coupling is original, but it may have been changed when the pump was. I guess it is worth taking a look at both. I'da thunk the coupling was an all or nothing deal, but I guess not. I did have the electrodes slightly miss aligned, too far forward and slightly off "level" with each other.

    The refractory liner was replaced by the same guy that replaced the pump. It had gotten soaked by the old pump leaking into it and seemed to be breaking down. Peeking in nothing seems out of place.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,014
    @joea99

    You can't do pre and post purge on a burner unless it has an oil valve either separate or built into the pump.

    Not having pre and post purge shouldn't make a burner lock out
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,640
    Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is the burner motor or burner motor run capacitor is on the way out. I would test the run capacitor with a multimeter,  if it tests outside of 20 MFD +-5% I would replace it.  A bad capacitor or a flat spot in the windings can cause intermittent ignition problems. If the motor and pump aren't spinning you won't get ignition. 
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    edited May 3
    SuperTech said:

    Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is the burner motor or burner motor run capacitor is on the way out. I would test the run capacitor with a multimeter,  if it tests outside of 20 MFD +-5% I would replace it.  A bad capacitor or a flat spot in the windings can cause intermittent ignition problems. If the motor and pump aren't spinning you won't get ignition. 

    I'm inclined to think an intermittent problem with the motor is a very likely cause. Should have thought of that myself.

    I can test and replace the capacitor, but that still leaves the motor, so I'll check prices.
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    joea99 said:

    SuperTech said:

    Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is the burner motor or burner motor run capacitor is on the way out. I would test the run capacitor with a multimeter,  if it tests outside of 20 MFD +-5% I would replace it.  A bad capacitor or a flat spot in the windings can cause intermittent ignition problems. If the motor and pump aren't spinning you won't get ignition. 

    I'm inclined to think an intermittent problem with the motor is a very likely cause. Should have thought of that myself.

    I can test and replace the capacitor, but that still leaves the motor, so I'll check prices.
    Turns out the installed motor (original no doubt 30+ years), does not have an external capacitor. It was made by Emerson and is much larger in diameter than what I see listed as replacement motors for the current AFG burner motors, which do have a visible large externally mounted capacitor.

    While they are cheap enough, I am hesitant to replace it based on "maybe".
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    edited May 3
    joea99 said:

    joea99 said:

    SuperTech said:

    Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is the burner motor or burner motor run capacitor is on the way out. I would test the run capacitor with a multimeter,  if it tests outside of 20 MFD +-5% I would replace it.  A bad capacitor or a flat spot in the windings can cause intermittent ignition problems. If the motor and pump aren't spinning you won't get ignition. 

    I'm inclined to think an intermittent problem with the motor is a very likely cause. Should have thought of that myself.

    I can test and replace the capacitor, but that still leaves the motor, so I'll check prices.
    Turns out the installed motor (original no doubt 30+ years), does not have an external capacitor. It was made by Emerson and is much larger in diameter than what I see listed as replacement motors for the current AFG burner motors, which do have a visible large externally mounted capacitor.

    While they are cheap enough, I am hesitant to replace it based on "maybe".
    Upon further reflection, if this were anything other than a spark problem, why would there be unburned oil in the chamber when I do an override? I guess it could be a very bad spray pattern missing the spark?

    Every time it has happened it has lit off the first try and smoked a bit out the inspection port and flue damper. I've done a number of starts and each one lights off instantly and clean.

    Only times it has done it is overnight, never while I am there. Naturally.

    Not being argumentative, just puzzled.
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24

    joea99 said:

    No one cares to comment further? ...

    Intermittent lock outs are discussed and commented frequently on this website. You can search the website, or contact a pro.
    Sometimes they are easy to find, sometimes it requires all of one's skills, knowledge and experience (and special tools).

    "Bleeds down pretty slowly" for a one pipe fuel system indicates bad pump cut off. I'd have someone test the fuel unit properly. Why is the pressure at 115? That's an odd number-literally and practically.

    The slow bleed down may be due to my "dead heading" the gauge into the pump outlet as I did not have a fitting for the gauge port on the pump. The pressure was set by the "pro" that replaced the pump.
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    I think the issue may be resolved. While squatting in front of it, felt some "breeze" by the ignition transformer. Upon closer inspection the gasket was not seating properly. Replaced it and the breeze was, if not gone, much less noticeable.

    Had to drop the air shutter from 8 to 4.5 to get any soot. From there a fine tune and all seems well.
  • Ctoilman
    Ctoilman Member Posts: 63
    Nope...even if the gasket wasn't even there and air was pouring out of the seam it wouldn't cause a reset condition.  
    STEVEusaPASuperTech
  • joea99
    joea99 Member Posts: 24
    edited May 7
    You don't think that would reduce "static pressure" and could cause a bad spray pattern resulting in very intermittent "no ignition"?

    Anyway, it has not done it since I adjusted the electrodes a few weeks ago. They were a bit off.
  • Ctoilman
    Ctoilman Member Posts: 63
    Static pressure is for steady state combustion cleanliness and efficiency.  
    My suspicion is the electrode setting was considerably off and/or the nozzle was bad.

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