Roth oil tank recommended?

RJHNY1

Hi guys, I need to replace my 275 gallon oil tank in my home. I made a post a few weeks back in the gas heating forum about a possible gas conversion. A gas conversion does not make financial sense, but a few guys in that thread made a few off handed comments about the Roth oil tank.

I'm in the middle of contacting companies to replace my oil tank. Any reason not to go with the Roth? I did some research and it seems like they're pretty awesome. Ironically enough, one of the companies I called, the guy told me he did not trust Roth tanks.

Thank you!

STEVEusaPA

Don’t use that guy then. Considering they are basically the same price as a standard steel tank, they’re worth the double wall protection.
I haven’t installed a steel tank in a few years now.

Robert O'Brien

STEVEusaPA said:

Don’t use that guy then. Considering they are basically the same price as a standard steel tank, they’re worth the double wall protection.
I haven’t installed a steel tank in a few years now.

Ditto

Ctoilman

Not a fan of the Roth tank.  Drawing fuel from the top of the tank is not ideal and should use a Tigerloop at the burner to avoid air issues.  How long has your existing tank lasted?

RJHNY1

I don't know how long the tank lasted. I moved in this house 3.5 years ago. I was told that the oil tank is not the original one from when this house was built in 1955.

Ctoilman

Sounds like there is plenty of life left in tank.  I'd suggest putting the $3k into new windows/doors/insulation in the home.

RJHNY1

The tank is leaking. It's not a constant leak, but it's dripped several times before. The belly of the tank is soft and when I touch it, I get a small smudge of oil on my finger. That needs to get replaced before it breaks completely and everything pours out.

STEVEusaPA

Yeah...sooner than later. I'd put the Roth/equivalent in. Properly installed, vacuum leak free, no Tiger Loop.
Get a company before the prices go up even higher, and before AC season starts.

RJHNY1

Thanks Steve. I'm working on it now! I have a guy coming today and another guy coming tomorrow to look and give quotes.

What's a tiger loop?

Thank you.

Ctoilman

Tiger loop is a device that automatically removes air from the fuel feed line of an oil burner.  A good idea with a top feed oil line, it'll be necessary in the future eventually.

SuperTech

Ctoilman said:

Tiger loop is a device that automatically removes air from the fuel feed line of an oil burner.  A good idea with a top feed oil line, it'll be necessary in the future eventually.

Why would it be necessary in the future? I know that they are required in other countries and I believe that they are beneficial when the oil tank is outside but I can't see them being required.  

RJHNY1

I had a guy come in yesterday. He said he could not install the Roth tank b/c the pipe coming out to fill the tank with oil needs to be higher than I have it now. He looked outside and said it wouldn't be possible to do. He said I would have to stick with the same shape boiler I have now, meaning the more horizontal than vertical one. I attached the pics.

I have another guy coming today. I'll see if he corroborates the first guy.

STEVEusaPA

It could easily be done. Sounds like your guy just doesn't want to do a roth, or doesn't want to drill new holes.
The roth is 54", that tank with 9" legs is probably 49-50". You just have to drill the holes a little higher.

Looks like your tank failed because of water sitting in the bottom. With top draw tanks you should treat the tank maybe once a year.

RJHNY1

He would have drilled the holes, but it wouldn't have worked. The location you're proposing would put the Roth in a spot that makes it not worth it b/c the idea of the Roth is to occupy less space to the left as seen in my picture above so I can have that corner of the room for a work bench. Also, on the outside, the spot you placed is right next to my garage door. The pipes would become very visible. Where it is now, it's hidden by a bush.

STEVEusaPA

Ok so drill the holes above the old holes, or closer to the steps.

Ctoilman

SuperTech said:

Ctoilman said:

Tiger loop is a device that automatically removes air from the fuel feed line of an oil burner.  A good idea with a top feed oil line, it'll be necessary in the future eventually.

Why would it be necessary in the future? I know that they are required in other countries and I believe that they are beneficial when the oil tank is outside but I can't see them being required.  

Pulling from the top will be tough to keep primed as the pump ages, a Tiger Loop will alleviate that.  
Bigger question is, why isn't the oil being drawn from the bottom of the tank (gravity fed)?

RJHNY1

I don't know...is that how it should be?

Ctoilman

Should be gravity feed unless it can"t be.

STEVEusaPA

Re-read comments 1,2, 7. 10, 12 & 14, ignore the rest

RJHNY1

STEVEusaPA said:

Re-read comments 1,2, 7. 10, 12 & 14, ignore the rest

Are you talking about the comments in this thread?

Robert O'Brien

Ctoilman said:

SuperTech said:

Ctoilman said:

Tiger loop is a device that automatically removes air from the fuel feed line of an oil burner.  A good idea with a top feed oil line, it'll be necessary in the future eventually.

Why would it be necessary in the future? I know that they are required in other countries and I believe that they are beneficial when the oil tank is outside but I can't see them being required.  

Pulling from the top will be tough to keep primed as the pump ages, a Tiger Loop will alleviate that.  
Bigger question is, why isn't the oil being drawn from the bottom of the tank (gravity fed)?
I agree, steel tanks should use the bottom outlet if at all possible to allow water/sludge to exit tank. That being said, a top feed as with a Roth.

RJHNY1

So I had two guys come in. They both spent a lot of time looking at my set up inside and outside the house. One guy told me a Roth is not possible for where my tank is now. The other guy told me that a Roth *could* be possible, but he advised against it. He said too many potential issues could pop up and that the smarter play is to go with the standard Granby oil tank.

RJHNY1

The Roth is not going to happen unfortunately. I will have to go with a granby. 

What’s better?  Granby standard or ecogard double wall oil tank?  One heating guy told me double wall tank was not necessary for an indoor tank.  Is that accurate?

 I do like the idea of double wall so if the tank leaks, the leak stays internal. 

Thanks!

STEVEusaPA

Of course any double wall is better, as it will give you an indication of internal failure. Might even help with your homeowners insurance.
Based on all your posts, you seem to be in an area of a lot of uninformed heating people.

Ctoilman

It's in a decent clean dry basement, let's keep it simple and least expensive, no? 
Do a simple Granby single wall tank with the oil line off the bottom, oil filter at tank as well.  Filter doesn't need to be a spin-on, a simple cartridge type General 1A-25 is plenty good.  It'll be the last tank you'll ever put in that house.

RJHNY1

Thanks guys. I don't know if it's uninformed heating people. A lot of people have their own views and opinions and you get different answers from different people. I had 4 tank/heating guys come in. All 4 said the Roth won't work in my basement. So there's consistency there.

The 4th guy who came yesterday was absolutely awesome. He knew the EK system and is trained to work with them, he was really knowledgeable, no BS, and very matter of fact. His reviews on google are fantastic. I really liked him the most and he's the one I will go with. I found it interesting he was the one who wanted to do a double wall tank when two of the other guys said to go with standard. His price for the double wall tank was the same as one of the other guys who wanted to do standard.

So that's why I'm asking about standard vs double wall.

Big Ed_4

I am thinking the negative Roth tank installers don't want to core a new hole for the fill or vent or maybe there is not enough room though the door way ... Roth is a sexy tank , I also am not a fan of a top feed tank nor an outside tank .

Me ,I would recommend an inside tank properly installed with a bottom valve and tap . The tank need to be pitch toward the valve ,and a filter is recommended at the tank to protect the oil line and to catch any water .. A inch higher on the legs on the far side would give you a proper 1/4" pitch per foot . I use a set of 12" and 13" for legs the hight gives me enough room to instal and service the oil filter .

With a top feed , tank water will collect below the oil line , an algae will live between the oil and water which secrets the sludge which is acidic and eats away on a steel tank like it did on yours . The Roth has a plastic type liner so it will not rot . But the tank can sludge up . The bottom feed pitched tank ,the water will drain into the tanks filter . I use a general filter at the tank and recommend changing and dump the can once a year .. It is important that the tank sits in a dry environment the tank will not rot from the outside in .Outside tanks not on a slab or on a slab and leaves collecting under the tank will rot the tank from the outside in . Good luck

RJHNY1

Big Ed_4 said:

I am thinking the negative Roth tank installers don't want to core a new hole for the fill or vent or maybe there is not enough room though the door way ... Roth is a sexy tank , I also am not a fan of a top feed tank nor an outside tank .

Me ,I would recommend an inside tank properly installed with a bottom valve and tap . The tank need to be pitch toward the valve ,and a filter is recommended at the tank to protect the oil line and to catch any water .. A inch higher on the legs on the far side would give you a proper 1/4" pitch per foot . I use a set of 12" and 13" for legs the hight gives me enough room to instal and service the oil filter .

With a top feed , tank water will collect below the oil line , an algae will live between the oil and water which secrets the sludge which is acidic and eats away on a steel tank like it did on yours . The Roth has a plastic type liner so it will not rot . But the tank can sludge up . The bottom feed pitched tank ,the water will drain into the tanks filter . I use a general filter at the tank and recommend changing and dump the can once a year .. It is important that the tank sits in a dry environment the tank will not rot from the outside in .Outside tanks not on a slab or on a slab and leaves collecting under the tank will rot the tank from the outside in . Good luck

Thank you. The Granby tank is a gravity feed tank. I don't know why my current tank was set up as a top feed, but any Granby that's installed will be gravity feed/bottom valve tank.

There's just no room on the outside for a Roth tank. The vent/fill pipes have to be higher than the current vent/fill pipes and just because of the way it is on the outside of the house, there's no good spot to drill it. There's just not a lot of room to work with. The last plumber said he loooooves the Roth, but it's just not going to work where the tank exists. 3 other plumbers corroborated him. It sucks, but it is what it is.

My basement is cool and dry, so rot shouldn't be an issue for the new tank.

It sounds like you recommend the double wall tank than the standard?

Big Ed_4

Do they make a double wall with a bottom feed ? I no knowledge of one , not a side feed but a bottom feed I recommend.. Any water that can collect in the tank you want to avoid . A side feed tank can collect water.

The old thought was to leave room for sludge , They used side taps which left a few inch inches below the tap and pitched the tank away from the valve leaving more room for sludge . Top feed when there was already sludge in the tank .Which only bought time . Those old tanks installed in the fifties and later all leaked and false bottoms were welded or later fiberglassed on. It was the way we were taught . They were set up for failure and gave use service techs lots of overtime ...

The new concept is not to give an environment for algae to grow . The algae which feeds off the oil can't digest the sulfur in the oil. The sludge which is their waste product is sulfuric acid in part .

RJHNY1

I was told that it was a gravity feed by multiple plumbers.

https://www.granbyindustries.com/en-us/petroleum-tanks/categories/residential-oil-tanks-en-us/

STEVEusaPA

If you're going with a single wall steel tank, they should put a pan under it. These appear to be code in Canada, as well as a pan under the burner/filter, and good practice in general. Don't know about the alarm, but why not, right?

My only complaint with top feed tanks is that you can not clean out what's on the bottom-algae, sludge, water etc. In Europe they clean tanks so it's less of a problem.
As far as top feed, if the oil line goes almost to the bottom of the tank, comes out the top, then back down to the floor to the burner, it's a gravity job and wouldn't need a tiger loop. Just like the siphon you learned about in scouts.
Here's the burner one:

Big Ed_4

( I don't see the tap in the photo ) I am almost sure the double wall is a side feed which will be gravity feed , but will catch some water under the tap . Unless the tap is bottom and extends though the false bottom which I would be surprised Fuel oil by it self will not eat away a steel tank... Water is the problem inside and out . I like the 20 year with the better paint job . The paint protects from the out side . A standard tank new tank should be painted if it arrives with scratches in the paint .. The tank should also be installed with the seam out ... This is all in the instruction sheet .