Near boiler pipe diameter and restriction questions. Also exhaust coupling question

TT_Vert

I'm replacing a floor mount boiler w/ a wall mount unit.

Intake/Exhaust question:
The floor mount had 3" PVC intake/exhaust into a concentric. I had to cut out the old PVC and I left a stud to step down to the 2" the new unit will require. My issue is I need to wall mount the unit before plumbing the intake/exhaust PVC and in doing so I'm not going to be able to slide the PVC into the reducers I will have to use. This brings me to my two options.

1. I don't think this is code. but use a 3" to 2" reducing rubber coupler. This would allow me to slide the coupler down the pipe, insert it into the flue of the boiler and then slide the coupler up into place. The manuf. instructions just state the following and I have no idea where to even look in NFPA 54 for coupler requirements. [quote]Venting requirements differ in the US and Canada. Consult the following chart or the most recent edition of ANSI Z223.1/NFPA 54 as well as all applicable local codes and regulations when selecting vent pipe materials. Do not use cellular core PVC (ASTM F891), cellular core CPVC, or Radel®(polyphenolsulfone) for the exhaust vent. ]/quote]
2. I use a 2" PVC union which will also be air tight and allow me to slide the pipe into the flue and hopefully into place. What do you guys do when you already have a fixed intake/exhaust to mate the new piping to the old and keep it up to code?

Pipe sizing
The manuf. states the following [quote]For the upstream side of all pumps, use straight pipes with a minimum inside diameter of 1/2 in (12 mm)[/quote].
Does this mean so long as my ID of all pipes post circ. pump has an ID of .5" or greater I'm good? The reason I ask is the boiler I'm getting has an optional primary manifold kit. The kit is 1" feed and return to boiler w/ a 1.5" secondary circuit piece. All of my existing piping, flow valves, etc. are all 1". I don't see any issues stepping down from the 1.5" to 1" except for my OCD. I'm not much of a plumber but I'm almost tempted to plumb my primary circuit just using 1" for the entire thing so I won't need to get 1.5 to 1" reducers. Opinions?

I don't see mention of secondary side flow loss restrictions based on bends. Reason I ask this is if i use the prebuilt manifold I'm going to have to do a 180 as the feed side is on the opposite side that the manifold kit dumps it out (to the right). I don't see many 180 deg. fittings out there so I have to assume there is a reason for it but I'm not all that well versed in fluid dynamics. N

ext, is it taboo for flow or turbulence issues to have a 90 right next to a manifold? IE my manifold loop feed is going to require a 1" 90 street elbow right off of it. What about 90 degree turns in general?

Thanks again guys, you've been super helpful in my quest to replace my own boiler and learn a ton in the process.

Dave

EdTheHeaterMan

It appears that your boiler location is not ideal. Is there any room to relocate the boiler? The wall you hang it on does not need to be a wall that is already there. Can you place a few studs from floor to ceiling a foot or so out from the wall to get the boiler is a better place?

TT_Vert

EdTheHeaterMan said:

It appears that your boiler location is not ideal. Is there any room to relocate the boiler? The wall you hang it on does not need to be a wall that is already there. Can you place a few studs from floor to ceiling a foot or so out from the wall to get the boiler is a better place?

What all do you see wrong w/ the location? Given the exhaust location that's probably the best wall for it and all manifold and pex is also on that wall. I could move it over a bit to the left but then i have to do some significant intake/exhaust rework and some electrical as my box is near the new location. I just ran that too lol. Here is the plumbing. I have removed the 1" copper and zone valve in prep for repiping. The unit is going to the right of it dead center in that discoloration in the wall. As you can see the manifold is all the way to the left of the wall w/ about 1' spacing. This is why i'm keen to use my own manifold if i can figure it out.

if I build my own primary loop i can do something like this. I have two pex from the floor (1 from each zone) returning as well as the manifold loop in this room. I apologize for the bad drawing.

Dave

EdTheHeaterMan

Here is an idea that will get you closer to the old boiler location. It might give you more room for near boiler piping similar to the old boiler And you can hide stuff behind the fake wall and still have access.
You can also select the height of the boiler to make the piping fit better.

Do whatever makes your job easier. Remember you (or someone) may need to make a zone valve or manifold repair several years from now.

TT_Vert

I don't have the depth in the room to do this and i don't think that will help me much here. Plus my exhaust is coming from the roof on down flush w/ that wall. The old floor mounted boiler is gone and i'm starting from scratch w/ the near boiler plumbing. What you see in pics is now gone all i have are manifolds for the loops in place and the return/feed pex from two other areas. I think i got a bit OT here. Back to the exhaust working and fluid dynamics questions.

Dave

EdTheHeaterMan

This will not provide enough flow thru the boiler if one zone is off. This is the reason for Primary, Secondary. The boiler circulator does not need to deal with the restriction of the entire system

Am I seeing this correctly? the yellow is one zone the red is another zone and then there is a third zone at the manifold. The blue is a return line. So you are using the boiler circulator as the system circulator also. That pump does not have enough power for that design.

EdTheHeaterMan

Look in the installation manual and see if there is a diagram like this

The boiler pump only needs to make sure there is enough flow thru the boiler for the heat exchanger so it does not overheat. It is powerful enough for that function. The system pump will handle the restrictions of the zone valves and the heat emitters. That restriction will not affect the boiler pump.

Your design (using boiler pump as system pump also) only works on single-zone systems and only if it is not too long of a loop.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully submitted,
Mr.Ed

hot_rod

In tight spots I see installers use a hydraulic separator directly under the boiler as a space saver. This corrects the piping, gives you air, dirt, hydraulic and mag separation. The manifold only get you hydraulic separation.
Cory got three circulators, sep, boiler in about a 30" wide space.

Also best practice piping for P/S.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@TT_Vert

No rubber couplings on the exhaust. On the intake they would be ok.

Regardless of how the old boiler exhaust & intake are piped you have to follow and meet the instructions for the new boiler. Existing conditions and the old boiler do not matter.

Only the new instructions do

TT_Vert

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@TT_Vert

No rubber couplings on the exhaust. On the intake they would be ok.

Regardless of how the old boiler exhaust & intake are piped you have to follow and meet the instructions for the new boiler. Existing conditions and the old boiler do not matter.

Only the new instructions do

I get it which is why i mentioned what the new manual is stating; To refer to NFPA 54 for coupler requirements. I'm having a hard time finding coupler requirements defined in here. I'm seeing a bunch of feed pipe coupling stuff but nothing on exhaust of combustible gas. There is nothing in the manual that says what is ok or not ok for couplers, just material of the vent itself. Do I assume that the coupler must be one of the same listed materials as the vent? What are you guys doing to mate existing to new exhaust systems when you have a wall mounted boiler? How do you slip the pvc pipes into the new couplers and glue them, push the existing venting up if possible to get the pipes in?

Thanks
Dave

EdTheHeaterMan

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@TT_Vert

No rubber couplings on the exhaust. On the intake they would be ok.

Regardless of how the old boiler exhaust & intake are piped you have to follow and meet the instructions for the new boiler. Existing conditions and the old boiler do not matter.

Only the new instructions do

Agree with this... but that does not mean the existing vent is not going to work. It means that the existing vent must be one of the options on the new boiler installation instructions. If it is not, then you will need a redesign.

Mr.Ed

TT_Vert

EdTheHeaterMan said:

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@TT_Vert

No rubber couplings on the exhaust. On the intake they would be ok.

Regardless of how the old boiler exhaust & intake are piped you have to follow and meet the instructions for the new boiler. Existing conditions and the old boiler do not matter.

Only the new instructions do

Agree with this... but that does not mean the existing vent is not going to work. It means that the existing vent must be one of the options on the new boiler installation instructions. If it is not, then you will need a redesign.

Mr.Ed

I may not have understood the original comment. The concentric vent setup I have is one of the listed intake/exhaust options. My setup is currently two 3" for I/E which wye just before they exit the roof. The concentric kit is in the wye unlike some of the newer ones which are all 1 pipe. My setup is explicitly shown as an option. My question is the couplers acceptable to code regulations. They also have to allow me to slide the I/E piping up into the coupling and given the boiler will be mounted to wall already i cannot see it being possible to glue them together since I'd have to slide the pvc a good 1.5" into the boiler to get it into the fitting up near the ceiling to mate the new to the old. If that makes sense.





Dave

TT_Vert

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Look in the installation manual and see if there is a diagram like this

The boiler pump only needs to make sure there is enough flow thru the boiler for the heat exchanger so it does not overheat. It is powerful enough for that function. The system pump will handle the restrictions of the zone valves and the heat emitters. That restriction will not affect the boiler pump.

Your design (using boiler pump as system pump also) only works on single-zone systems and only if it is not too long of a loop.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully submitted,
Mr.Ed

Hey Ed I should have been more specific that was a very rough drawing not taking into consideration circ pumps. I plan to have a primary/secondary setup. One pump in the primary circuit and one in the secondary. I was going to use NBF-25s for both circuits. They are 3 speed units so I can adjust flow accordingly. I have two zones. One zone is the big garage and has 2 manifolds. One manifold is in this room (feeds 4 loops on one half of the garage) as you see. The other is fed by a 3/4" PEX tube that goes into the concrete to the other manifold in the middle of the garage which feeds the other 4 loops for the garage. Then there are another 3/4" feed/return that feed another manifold on the opposite end of the house that heats the floor in the master bathroom.

So i will have my primary circuit which would feed the secondary circuit. This would Tee off to two zone valves. One zone valve will again Tee off and one leg goes to the tube that feeds to remote manifold in middle of garage and other directly feeds the manifold on this room. The second part of this feed tee would go to the 2nd zone valve which will feed the 3/4" pex that goes to the master bathroom. Clear as mud?

Dave

EdTheHeaterMan

For the vent connection, you could use a slip coupling. Slide the coupling on the pipe then match the 2 pipes together and slide the coupling over both to get the desired result.

Also, I believe you can use a "Fernco" or other brands of neoprene connector. The temperature rating of the connector is the key. When Lennox came out with the first condensing furnace, it was a Pulse burner to insure the combustion was complete (as not to clog up a secondary heat exchanger with carbon from incomplete combustion). That Pulse furnace has specific instructions for flexible duct connectors, a flexible gas connector, and neoprene vent connectors to isolate the burner vibration from the building.

I remember getting turned down on an inspection because I could not prove that the "Fernco" was made of neoprene. I asked for the gas company to get his supervisor on site unless he could prove that the Fernco was not neoprene. We had cell phones in bags back then but the information about the connector was not on the internet yet. The supervisor was not available so I blocked the gas company van (with my out-of-state vehicle) from leaving the site until I got what I wanted. Another supervisor magically appeared and I got the result I wanted.

I didn't care because I was helping my brother on a project out of my regular operating area. They were never going to see me again so I took the flack. Those were the good old days!

"Clear as mud". I believe you got the idea and you may have a handle on it. The Hydraulic separator Hot_Rod mentioned is a space saver although more expensive. But it eliminates the need for a separate air separator and it also has a dirt magnet filter to collect the ferrous debris that will cause premature system failures. So not so expensive after all.

TT_Vert

EdTheHeaterMan said:

For the vent connection, you could use a slip coupling. Slide the coupling on the pipe then match the 2 pipes together and slide the coupling over both to get the desired result.

Also, I believe you can use a "Fernco" or other brands of neoprene connector. The temperature rating of the connector is the key. When Lennox came out with the first condensing furnace, it was a Pulse burner to insure the combustion was complete (as not to clog up a secondary heat exchanger with carbon from incomplete combustion). That Pulse furnace has specific instructions for flexible duct connectors, a flexible gas connector, and neoprene vent connectors to isolate the burner vibration from the building.

I remember getting turned down on an inspection because I could not prove that the "Fernco" was made of neoprene. I asked for the gas company to get his supervisor on site unless he could prove that the Fernco was not neoprene. We had cell phones in bags back then but the information about the connector was not on the internet yet. The supervisor was not available so I blocked the gas company van (with my out-of-state vehicle) from leaving the site until I got what I wanted. Another supervisor magically appeared and I got the result I wanted.

I didn't care because I was helping my brother on a project out of my regular operating area. They were never going to see me again so I took the flack. Those were the good old days!

Yeah I'm trying to prevent a code issue when I sell this house in 7 years. I don't want it being inspected and having to change things down the road, do it once, do it right is my motto. It seems those slip couplings have a stop which puts me right back where I started. I actually did get THESE fernco couplings and it says they are made out of PVC however it doesn't state for use in furnance exhaust so I'm unsure where that really leaves me.

Flexible PVC construction
300-series stainless-steel clamps resist corrosion and offer efficient seals
For sewer and DWV piping
Compatible with cast iron, plastic, copper, lead and steel piping
Provides positive seals for drain connections
Mechanical connection type
Underground rated

jad3675

TT_Vert said:

Yeah I'm trying to prevent a code issue when I sell this house in 7 years. I don't want it being inspected and having to change things down the road, do it once, do it right is my motto. It seems those slip couplings have a stop which puts me right back where I started. I actually did get THESE fernco couplings and it says they are made out of PVC however it doesn't state for use in furnance exhaust so I'm unsure where that really leaves me.

Flexible PVC construction
300-series stainless-steel clamps resist corrosion and offer efficient seals
For sewer and DWV piping
Compatible with cast iron, plastic, copper, lead and steel piping
Provides positive seals for drain connections
Mechanical connection type
Underground rated

If the Fernco meets whatever standards are laid out in the IO manual, you should be good. I'd mostly be concerned with the Fernco being able to withstand 140F temps and the acidity of the exhaust.

https://www.fernco.com/sites/default/files/literature/Flexible_Stock_Couplings_Submittal.pdf

https://www.fernco.com/sites/default/files/literature/fernco_acid_resistance_chart_2017.pdf

John

TT_Vert

jad3675 said:

TT_Vert said:

Yeah I'm trying to prevent a code issue when I sell this house in 7 years. I don't want it being inspected and having to change things down the road, do it once, do it right is my motto. It seems those slip couplings have a stop which puts me right back where I started. I actually did get THESE fernco couplings and it says they are made out of PVC however it doesn't state for use in furnance exhaust so I'm unsure where that really leaves me.

Flexible PVC construction
300-series stainless-steel clamps resist corrosion and offer efficient seals
For sewer and DWV piping
Compatible with cast iron, plastic, copper, lead and steel piping
Provides positive seals for drain connections
Mechanical connection type
Underground rated

If the Fernco meets whatever standards are laid out in the IO manual, you should be good. I'd mostly be concerned with the Fernco being able to withstand 140F temps and the acidity of the exhaust.

https://www.fernco.com/sites/default/files/literature/Flexible_Stock_Couplings_Submittal.pdf

https://www.fernco.com/sites/default/files/literature/fernco_acid_resistance_chart_2017.pdf

John

yeah unfortunately this does not help me determine if they meet code. I'm shocked I cannot find a definitive answer on this. On the label of the coupler it says "For sewer and drain use only"

Someone else said this which makes a bit of sense if they call for PVC and this is PVC but who knows.

I did a little more research... fernco couplings are made from PVC... and have the same 140 degree temp rating as sched 40 pipe.
Condensate from condensing direct vent units produces water/carbon dioxide/carbonic acid. This fernco document indicates that they are compatible with carbon acid.

and

If the heating device says pvc pipe is an approved material to connect intake and exhaust, any fitting that is approved for use with PVC should also be okay.

TT_Vert

Another question and request for opinion. Is there a certain distance copper pipe should be from the drywall? Water temp will never exceed 140 so I don't think it's an issue but before I mount it and find out there is a rule of thumb distance i figured I'd ask.

I've done some more reading while the manual shows the zone valves and circs on the hot water side i've been reading that some say having it on the return side actually increases the lifespan of the components. Why am I asking this? "IF" i were to plumb everything on the return side it makes my life MUCH easier as all my pex and manifolds are on the left which is the return side. By doing this though my top manifold in this pic now becomes the RETURN instead of the feed, is that an issue? I have no flow gauges that would be affected by this. What say you guys?



I decided to start trying to mock some stuff up to see what I feel the best way to do this is. I'll be using new pipe because to me this looks horrible but for mock up this will have to do. So far the simplest way I have is as follows. Let me know which one you guys think looks better. Is that a problem if my zone valves are so close together? See any other issues with this? This is just the feed side obviously I will have to do the return side after I figure out the feed side. I had decided to stagger the two pipes after the zone valves due to the pex exit location. My one issue is the one pex feed is going to be too short unless I run a 6" stub down off the top pipe. Do you think that's going to look horrible? unfortunately it's going to be sort of just be out there dangling (I will be supporting all pipes w/ bell pipe hangers but this stub I won't be able to. It is short though so maybe it won't be so bad. I'd love to get that top pipe (1) below pipe 2 but given the manifold needs to be behind a zone valve and tied to PEX 2 I cannot see how to to it. I'm all ears if you guys have suggestions there.

3/4" pex 1 goes to nipple 1. It's all hanging there so it's not level or plumb. I will try to reduce the footprint of this as much as I can. If you guys can recommend any fitting to make it more compact I'd love to hear how. If they make a street T on all 3 sides that'd help reduce the footprint quite a bit.


other option with top pipe shorter to stagger the pex and maybe make it look a bit better.




Thanks guys

Dave

Jamie Hall

Your best be -- by far -- is to ask the authority having jurisdiction in your are (building inspector, fire marshall -- it varies) about the Ferncos. Fernco itself does not list them as acceptable on boiler exhausts; I suspect that in the problem is not just the clamps, but the overall material and gaskets .

jad3675

Jamie Hall said:

Your best be -- by far -- is to ask the authority having jurisdiction in your are (building inspector, fire marshall -- it varies) about the Ferncos. Fernco itself does not list them as acceptable on boiler exhausts; I suspect that in the problem is not just the clamps, but the overall material and gaskets .

Fair point, though as has been pointed out countless times, PVC manufactures don't state that PVC can be used for HE exhaust.
According to the Fernco submittal they meet the following standards:
ASTM D5926, Cl 173 and CSA B602

The TT Instinct IO manual I'm currently reading has this listed for acceptable:
PVC Schedule 40 - ANSI/ASTM D1785
• PVC-DWV - ANSI/ASTM D2665
• CPVC Schedule 40 - ANSI/ASTM F441

I wouldn't use it just based on it not being listed in the manual.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@TT_Vert

You are correct about your assumption about the couplings. If the install manual spec's a certain type of PVC or CPVC or polypropylene that you have to use the coupling that the manufacturer of the pipe manufacturers for that pipe your going to use.Not supposed to mix manufacturers stuff.

If you use PVC their is only one brand I know of that is listed for use for venting and that is IPEX and the listing is on the pipe itself.

If your existing venting concentric system is not listed for the new boiler it may not be ok.

The venting system you use and all it's components has to be listed for the boiler you install....check the boiler manual it will tell you what is allowed.

Some inspector may let you mix and match. Some may not

I doubt any fernco is listed for venting

The boiler mfg tests and lists the boiler and venting system as a complete package and your supposed to follow their instructions

EBEBRATT-Ed

@jad3675 , @TT_Vert

From the Ipex web site


System 1738® PVC
Engineered PVC Flue Gas Venting System certified to UL 1738

UL 1738 certified vent system for Categories II and IV gas burning appliances
Rated for flue gas temperatures up to 149°F (65°C)
Pipe, fittings, cement, and venting accessories, sizes include 2”, 3”, and 4”


The use of plastic venting systems on gas fired water heaters, furnaces and boilers has undergone a significant change. The NFPA 54-18 and IFGC-18 Fuel Gas Codes now recognize the UL 1738 venting standard across the United States.

The safety concern today is in the use of plumbing Solid Wall Schedule 40 or Foam Core DWV pipe and fittings in FGV applications. These products were never intended to be used in FGV applications, but they have been chosen because they are often the least expensive materials available.

Some manufacturers of these products have stated repeatedly that these products are not designed for FGV. These products do not meet the key performance requirements nor most of the material requirements of UL 1738. Simply put, plumbing DWV products are NOT designed to meet the life safety standards of FGV applications.

System 1738 Flue Gas Venting offers a full range of pipe, fittings and termination components that are manufactured from an engineered PVC compound, rated for a maximum flue gas temperature of 149˚F and that are fully certified to the rigorous requirements of UL 1738 venting standard for gas-burning appliances, Categories II and IV.

TT_Vert

Thanks I'm trying to find the products they sell and I cannot seem to find if they have a 3 to 2" coupler. Googling System 1738 coupler comes up w/ little to nothing. With that said, would a PVC threaded coupler w/ o'ring be acceptable here? There is rubber in there so I feel it wouldn't either

Dave

EBEBRATT-Ed

@TT_Vert

IPEX© System 1738® PVC Flue Gas Vent Increaser Coupling - 3" X 2"


Google: Component Mfg. Corporation

TT_Vert

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@TT_Vert

IPEX© System 1738® PVC Flue Gas Vent Increaser Coupling - 3" X 2"


Google: Component Mfg. Corporation

thanks unfortunately that is a rigid connection. I need something I can slide down the pipe and the slide up once I align the new pvc to the existing. I need to be able to get the pvc into the flue of the unit first and then connect it to the existing rigid exhaust that is already in place. with a rubber reducer with no stop i can slide the rubber coupling down, get the pipe into place and then slide it up/secure. Same can be done w/ a 2" union. Any right w/ an internal stop wont work. I suppose I could grind the inner stop out of the 2" side to allow me to slide it down the pipe but i could also do the same w/ PVC. I don't have the ability or play in the existing exhaust plumbing (It goes out the roof) to push it up enough to slide the pvc into a conventional rigid connector since the boiler must be mounted prior to me plumbing the intake/exhaust..

Dave

PC7060

TT_Vert said:

Thanks I'm trying to find the products they sell and I cannot seem to find if they have a 3 to 2" coupler. Googling System 1738 coupler comes up w/ little to nothing. With that said, would a PVC threaded coupler w/ o'ring be acceptable here? There is rubber in there so I feel it wouldn't either Dave

Ferguson’s and Ayers are the two places I’ve used for System 1738 supplies. 

hot_rod

You can buy repair couplings for standard PVC, basically a coupling with no stop. A little messy to use on a glue connection, but they do the job.

TT_Vert

hot_rod said:

You can buy repair couplings for standard PVC, basically a coupling with no stop. A little messy to use on a glue connection, but they do the job.

Ahh, why didn't I think of that. I have to find a way to not make that look hideous w/ glue everywhere And that'd be code to boot. If i glue and slide it up i can at least have the excess of glue at the top and not running down the bottom.
Dave

hot_rod

TT_Vert said:

hot_rod said:

You can buy repair couplings for standard PVC, basically a coupling with no stop. A little messy to use on a glue connection, but they do the job.

Ahh, why didn't I think of that. I have to find a way to not make that look hideous w/ glue everywhere And that'd be code to boot. If i glue and slide it up i can at least have the excess of glue at the top and not running down the bottom.
Dave

I think acetone would clean up the glue left behind. It will take the glaze off the PVC.
Paint it with a latex.

Henry

A DYI gas boiler installations is not acceptable to the AHJ. You have to be certified for a gas appliance. The boiler manufacturer will not cover any issues with your installation. Last fall, I did an inspection for a major US manufacturer, up North of a badly installed boiler that caused damage to 250 white wedding chairs. The installer was not licensed but the company was. Insurance did not cover.

TT_Vert

Henry said:

A DYI gas boiler installations is not acceptable to the AHJ. You have to be certified for a gas appliance. The boiler manufacturer will not cover any issues with your installation. Last fall, I did an inspection for a major US manufacturer, up North of a badly installed boiler that caused damage to 250 white wedding chairs. The installer was not licensed but the company was. Insurance did not cover.

Yeah i'm pretty sure i needed to pull permits to frame out and wire my basement, and about 100 other projects I've done over the last 10 years. I probably also needed a permit (and more than likely a licenced electrician) to run 220 circuits for my welder and my compressor. With that said I've had 3 people come out and give me estimates and I am pretty sure 2 out of 3 of them know less than I've learned in a week talking to you guys. Not one of them wanted to do a heat loss calc (They just said "if the old boiler heated fine"), i had to explain to one guy about 5 times what manifolds went where and how they were being fed, etc. I hope they were just salesmen but it doesn't give the consumer the warm and fuzzies when you feel like you know more than they do (And I know nothing). With that said I will do everything to code and I will pay more attention to detail than all but the most anal installers. That much I can guarantee you. If something blows up it won't be because of my lack of attention to detail or incorrect installation. I've researched every system and subsystem on this thing to the point of exhaustion. I've done head, volume and pressure calculations, I've looked at different zone pumps and their flow rates to try to match my current plumbing w/o short cycling the boiler, i've done extensive heat loss calculations, way more than I ever wanted to do. I've pondered moving my zone valves and pump to the feed side, i've highly considered doing away w/ the zone valves and just using circ pumps on my two zones (I'm still actually pondering that one). I've gone over code for exhaust couplings, materials, code requirements, coupler resistance to every known freaking element out the, ugh.. I can go on and on. When I'm in I'm all in unfortunately. It's actually a curse to be like this in situations like this as it consumes me until I know every bit I can about what I'm working on. Installing something that works isn't good enough to me. I need to know how, what, when, where and why. I'm the kid who asked way too many questions (and still does). But to me knowledge is power.

As an aside, If I could get someone out who i felt actually knew **** they were doing and didn't want to charge me 8K to do it I'd be interested. I have one more quoting me today but I've already started buying fittings, pipe, valves, zone valve rebuild kits, etc. I'm not that guy why "knows just enough to be dangerous". Or at least I won't be by the time I'm done.

So since I'm here I'm going to ask a question I has asked before pertaining to fluid dynamics. Do I need to worry about having zone valves too close to each other? I don't know if it would cause flow problems or turbulence to one zone or another if the valves are too close? As I currently have this designed I have a 1" pipe that Tees. The feed is the right leg, the bottom leg will have a zone valve as will the left leg.

Here is a pic, do you feel this would be acceptable? The pipe is 1". Disclaimer: this is all just mock up. I plan to level/plumb new pipe as well as shorten legs where I can.



this looks kind of bad to me so I'm almost pondering rotating the top zone valve 90 deg and making both valves parallel w/ each other on the same plane. I wanted to do that from the get go but wasn't sure how I could do it. If I do this and parallel both of those valves and then the pipes to the nipples is there an industry standard gap between pipes you try to maintain to prevent any type of radiant transfer of heat from pipe to pipe?





Thanks for all your knowledge and I do appreciate the info on code enforcement. I studied fire science in college and I had to deal w/ all every freaking ridiculous code and code book out there so I know where you are coming from. When I feel im above of my pay grade I have no problem paying the pros. Unfortunately multiple "pro's" have not returned my calls or seemed incompetent thus far. And these weren't cheap places either!


Thanks
Dave

SuperTech

@TT_Vert I admire your passion for learning the details.  Sometimes being a bit OCD can be a good thing, I can relate to that.
I would avoid flowing into the bull of the tee. I would have the two tees next to each other in a manifold. Try to keep around six pipe diameters distance between the tees if possible, I believe thats best practice.  
The book Modern Hydronics by John Sigenthaler is an awesome resource for learning everything you could possibly need to know. 

TT_Vert

SuperTech said:

@TT_Vert I admire your passion for learning the details.  Sometimes being a bit OCD can be a good thing, I can relate to that.
I would avoid flowing into the bull of the tee. I would have the two tees next to each other in a manifold. Try to keep around six pipe diameters distance between the tees if possible, I believe thats best practice.  
The book Modern Hydronics by John Sigenthaler is an awesome resource for learning everything you could possibly need to know. 

Thanks, it's getting to be too OCD at this point. Trying to make sure everything is square and level when the guy who put the manifolds in didn't even level them. But I'm getting there. I'm definitely NOT 6 pipe diameters apart on my zone valves unless it's measured from entry of zone valve to entry of nearest zone valve. If the later I'm beyond 6" apart. I could always move that left zone down some if you feel it'll be an issue.

here is where I am at now. I need to finish plumbing the return tomorrow. I started completely over w/ feed and return. No idea what I'm really doing and am just winging it for the most part. I'm pretty happy w/ it given I have to work w/ the location of the manifold and the pex out of the slab and from bathroom

Do you guys know if they make an F fitting? It would be shaped like a capital F. I'd rather do that than use a Tee and a street elbow w/ 3/4" pex nipples. Do you know where I can find some type of adjustable height pipe clamp? I got some on amazon that they said were 50 mm tall and I figured that was to center of pipe but it's just the base that is 50mm, so way too tall. I need something that'd set the pipe off the wall about 1.5" total but I'd like it to be threaded and adjustable so I can use them for the pump i'll be mounting as well. The bell mounts you get at HD and menards are too short for my application. And given those are designed to be mounted before the pipe (The mounting screw is dead center) they're useless when you are mounting a system you already have in place which is why i liked these amazon ones.

These are the mounts that are too tall.





for my two returns
Thanks

Dave

jad3675

You can get split ring clamps at HD and use a ceiling plate and 3/8 threaded rod to make your mounts. Or you can use unistrut channels and padded clamps.

John

EdTheHeaterMan

Venting problem solution

2 ways
#1
These have Buna O-rings to make a gas-tight seal. Buna is rated for use up to 250°F
Place this fitting near the center of the connecting pipe. if you need to remove the pipe for future service.

#2
I was not very clear when I suggested a slip coupling above. This is what I meant. slide a slip coupling on the pipe with no glue. must be wet so it will slide back down. water or clear PVC pipe cleaner will facilitate pushing the coupling on the pipe and sliding it back. Apply glue after the fitting is on the pipe then slide the fitting over the joint.

Depending on how much room you have this is a permanent install and can only be removed by cutting away some pipe.


After making this drawing, I thought of this alternative The 2" pipe will easily fit inside a 3" pipe, so grind away the ridge on the reducing coupling so it will slip over the 2" pipe, then glue the end of the pipe and slip the reducing coupling up.



Hope this helps.

TT_Vert

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Venting problem solution

2 ways
#1
These have Buna O-rings to make a gas-tight seal. Buna is rated for use up to 250°F
Place this fitting near the center of the connecting pipe. if you need to remove the pipe for future service.

#2
I was not very clear when I suggested a slip coupling above. This is what I meant. slide a slip coupling on the pipe with no glue. must be wet so it will slide back down. water or clear PVC pipe cleaner will facilitate pushing the coupling on the pipe and sliding it back. Apply glue after the fitting is on the pipe then slide the fitting over the joint.

Depending on how much room you have this is a permanent install and can only be removed by cutting away some pipe.


After making this drawing, I thought of this alternative The 2" pipe will easily fit inside a 3" pipe, so grind away the ridge on the reducing coupling so it will slip over the 2" pipe, then glue the end of the pipe and slip the reducing coupling up.



Hope this helps.

You were very clear and I understood you perfectly. I actually had the 2" unions but I wasn't sure if that buona oring would be code acceptable given it says the vent must be PVC. I'd have to have the house inspected 7 years from now when I sell it and having to take my then 50 year old butt up on a ladder to cut and replumb. I do like the serviceability of a union much more though (Which is why i got them earlier this week) so if I can swing that w/o getting dinged i'd love to. I'm getting near the end of plumbing and the only concern I have is having my zone valves so close together. If anyone has an opinion on this i'd like to hear it. I won't be able to go any further until I get the boiler on the wall.

jad3675 said:

You can get split ring clamps at HD and use a ceiling plate and 3/8 threaded rod to make your mounts. Or you can use unistrut channels and padded clamps.

John

If i go w/ a unistrut I am unable to adjust the height correct? I need to be able to adjust depth to where my manifold dump my pipes. I'm going to try to cut one of these mounts I was sent to shorten it and just tack weld a nut to it. I don't know the material of this stuff but I'm sure its' cheap chinese crap metal that I won't be able to weld. I had seen those split mount clamps at HD but not the plates, I thought those were just used for unistrut. That is perfect, do they usually use 2 nuts as jamb nuts (one on each side of threaded rod) to keep the thread from moving once installed? When hanging I don't think it'd be as much of an issue but horizonal mounts could allow it to rotate a hair I would think.


Dave

TT_Vert

Sorry for all the questions. I think I have most of it squared away. Before I cut the pex and connect it I just wanted to ask you guys to look at my zone valves and the relative plumbing to see if you see anything that will be an issue. The only thing I think could be an issue is the zone valves being so close together. I hope to get the boiler tomorrow and finalize plumbing, thread some new gas pipe and pull the valve wiring and rewire everything cleanly. I was hoping when they did this addition w/ the new boiler they'd put a shutoff valve somewhere aside from right at the boiler. I followed the gas pipe an there is no shutoff anywhere else so I'm going to have to kill the gas to the entire house to do this. Going to have a lot of pilot lights to light after that.. The hard work is done for the most part though. Let me know what you think and any opinions you have.

Have any of you used the navien line? I see there is a 24V output for the LWCO. I called Navian to see what the current capacity was and all they'd tell me was it was 24Vac. I'd love to do away w/ my transformer and use that integral 24Vac to power the therm and zone valves. The valves only draw 300 mA each, no idea what the therm draws but it can't be much. Anyone ever do something like this?



Thanks again guys

Dave

EdTheHeaterMan

“. I followed the gas pipe an there is no shutoff anywhere else so I'm going to have to kill the gas to the entire house to do this. Going to have a lot of pilot lights to light after that.”

You never swapped out a gas fitting in the fly?    What’s a little flammable gas among friends?   LOL

Just kidding. Shut off the gas a put on a proper shut off valve valve for the boiler.  

TT_Vert

EdTheHeaterMan said:

“. I followed the gas pipe an there is no shutoff anywhere else so I'm going to have to kill the gas to the entire house to do this. Going to have a lot of pilot lights to light after that.”

You never swapped out a gas fitting in the fly?    What’s a little flammable gas among friends?   LOL

Just kidding. Shut off the gas a put on a proper shut off valve valve for the boiler.  

It's funny you mention this. If anyone ever asks I won't tell them I did this but I had a 1" cap on hand and just capped it very quickly after taking off the valve as I really didn't want to reignite all the pilot lights in this house.. I then put in a street elbow w/ a makeshift cap then the ball valve back on. Not the best way to do it but it was very quick and there were no sources of ignition anywhere nearby and good ventilation. With that said I'm nearly done with that. Need to thread a pipe a bit and cut 1/2" shorter.

I assume nobody has used the 24Vac LWCO circuit to power zone valves or a thermostat? I have been talking to a few people who are trying to talk me into doing constant circ w/ an alpha 2 and open the zone valves and let the ODR handle everything. I'd have to toy w/ the flow valves to fine tune temp i'm sure but it's doable. What are your opinions on this? It's an intriguing idea but I'm far too green to make this decision on my own. Granted I can just lock open the valves manually (Honeywell 8400 series) and try it out and if it doesn't work well then I could go back to therm controlled zone valves.

I do have a few things I wish I knew before going into this which would have saved me a ton of time. Maybe days!

1. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER reuse copper pipe. No matter how clean you may get it, solder many not adhere. I cut and cleaned the crap out of a few stubs I used (What harm could that be right?) Well I'd say about 5 of them leaked. Not one new pipe joint leaked a bit. I took them apart to do a post mortem and sure enough solder did not adhere. I used a decent amount of flux and I thought I had them pretty clean w/ 80 grit.

2. You can never had enough flux. I do a ton of soldering of electric components but have only soldered copper pipe twice now. Not only does flux clean your joint somewhat it also distributes heat much better. I skimped on flux in the beginning but in the end I was slathering it on. I've never seen flux burn away so cleanly either, no residue. Why can't my electronic flux do this???

3. Don't be like me and skimp on solder. I thought I was being all tidy by just putting enough solder in (or so I thought) to fill the joint but not make a mess. Well a few of my joints were semi dry. I had to drain the system and resolder a few of them. By the end I was filling the joint until it was puddling a bit the going to the back side and doing it again. Had quite a few drips but easily cleaned them up w/ a rag. The pros make that look so easy!

4. Don't use welding gloves to hold copper pipe while heating. Not so much because the heat does eventually penetrate them (IT DOES!) but because it shrunk my gloves into goofy cripple looking fingers. I will take a pic of this, it's hilarious. But now I need new welding gloves.

5. Fricking pex expansion rings are the bane of my existence. I expanded and put them on and they all leaked. I didn't rotate them as stated but they all did expande equally from what my 44 year old eyes could tell. Well I discovered I nicked two of the barbs so that's on me. Replaced all 4 of them because they were leaking and I didn't want to risk it. However what I didn't expect is for the expansion rings to take a good few hours in 60 deg air temp to fully seal. I got everything together and pressurized. I had a fountain at all 4 of them. I could rotate the rings slightly so I thought I had the wrong rings (if there is such a thing). I ended up tearing it down but by the time I got to the 3rd and 4th ring I could see they had sealed better and I could no longer rotate them. Lack of knowledge bites me in the ****. Lesson learned as I tore a good part of it back down and I probably didn't need to. (Although those nicks probably would have been problematic anyway)

6. Biggest one and the thing I have the least of. Patience, patience, patience!! I got frustrated a few times and was ready to pull the plug when i had all those leaks but I just kept at it. If you can take a break for the day and revisit in the morning w/ a fresh perspective. If I hadn't done that I'd have paid someone else to do this.


Thanks all for now. Glove pics and finished product will be shown when i'm done.

Dave

ChrisJ

TT_Vert said:

EdTheHeaterMan said:

“
1. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER reuse copper pipe. No matter how clean you may get it, solder many not adhere. I cut and cleaned the crap out of a few stubs I used (What harm could that be right?) Well I'd say about 5 of them leaked. Not one new pipe joint leaked a bit. I took them apart to do a post mortem and sure enough solder did not adhere. I used a decent amount of flux and I thought I had them pretty clean w/ 80 grit.

2. You can never had enough flux. I do a ton of soldering of electric components but have only soldered copper pipe twice now. Not only does flux clean your joint somewhat it also distributes heat much better. I skimped on flux in the beginning but in the end I was slathering it on. I've never seen flux burn away so cleanly either, no residue. Why can't my electronic flux do this???

3. Don't be like me and skimp on solder. I thought I was being all tidy by just putting enough solder in (or so I thought) to fill the joint but not make a mess. Well a few of my joints were semi dry. I had to drain the system and resolder a few of them. By the end I was filling the joint until it was puddling a bit the going to the back side and doing it again. Had quite a few drips but easily cleaned them up w/ a rag. The pros make that look so easy!

I solder both electronics, and copper pipe and have for many years. I also braze copper occasionally. They're similar in some ways, but also very different in others.

When soldering pipe the pipe must be clean and dry, but you also cannot get it too hot or you'll burn the flux and then it's garbage. Also, many of the fluxes out there never wash out so they spend their entire life eating away at the pipe. The last thing you want is more flux than necessary. It's messy and it's corrosive.

I've never had the need to wear gloves when sweating pipe and I've always had to clean the flux from the outside of the joints the best I can while they're still hot. You want to avoid hitting a burning hot joint with a wet rag but you can wipe it down after it cools for a few minutes. If your flame turns green, you went too far and are probably burning your flux. An overheated joint is questionable at best even if it doesn't leak at first.

Clean copper, MINIMAL flux (a shiny film) and the correct amount of quality solder are important. I've been using Bridgit solder and Oatey tinning flux lately and like it.

If we all always had to use only new pipe we'd need to replumb entire houses every time a modification was necessary. That seems a bit unrealistic.

TT_Vert

ChrisJ said:

TT_Vert said:

EdTheHeaterMan said:

“
1. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER reuse copper pipe. No matter how clean you may get it, solder many not adhere. I cut and cleaned the crap out of a few stubs I used (What harm could that be right?) Well I'd say about 5 of them leaked. Not one new pipe joint leaked a bit. I took them apart to do a post mortem and sure enough solder did not adhere. I used a decent amount of flux and I thought I had them pretty clean w/ 80 grit.

2. You can never had enough flux. I do a ton of soldering of electric components but have only soldered copper pipe twice now. Not only does flux clean your joint somewhat it also distributes heat much better. I skimped on flux in the beginning but in the end I was slathering it on. I've never seen flux burn away so cleanly either, no residue. Why can't my electronic flux do this???

3. Don't be like me and skimp on solder. I thought I was being all tidy by just putting enough solder in (or so I thought) to fill the joint but not make a mess. Well a few of my joints were semi dry. I had to drain the system and resolder a few of them. By the end I was filling the joint until it was puddling a bit the going to the back side and doing it again. Had quite a few drips but easily cleaned them up w/ a rag. The pros make that look so easy!

I solder both electronics, and copper pipe and have for many years. I also braze copper occasionally. They're similar in some ways, but also very different in others.

When soldering pipe the pipe must be clean and dry, but you also cannot get it too hot or you'll burn the flux and then it's garbage. Also, many of the fluxes out there never wash out so they spend their entire life eating away at the pipe. The last thing you want is more flux than necessary. It's messy and it's corrosive.

I've never had the need to wear gloves when sweating pipe and I've always had to clean the flux from the outside of the joints the best I can while they're still hot. You want to avoid hitting a burning hot joint with a wet rag but you can wipe it down after it cools for a few minutes. If your flame turns green, you went too far and are probably burning your flux. An overheated joint is questionable at best even if it doesn't leak at first.

Clean copper, MINIMAL flux (a shiny film) and the correct amount of quality solder are important. I've been using Bridgit solder and Oatey tinning flux lately and like it.

If we all always had to use only new pipe we'd need to replumb entire houses every time a modification was necessary. That seems a bit unrealistic.

Yeah it's a technique you learn over time I'm sure. If I gave myself some more practice I'm sure I'd become competent. In my case I must not have cleaned the pipes well enough. I found one joint last night that started dripping about 30 minutes after it was all together so I need to drain the system again today and fix that one. Sure enough it's a stub I reused. I dunno what the deal was, perhaps it was the age of the copper and oxidization I could not get off. It was shiny copper albeit at least 15 year old copper.

Dave