oil burner single pipe steam Nozzle size , GPH questions

LS123

Hello All,

1. I have a oil burner with 0.85 GPH with 80 degree type A, I think....
2. Burner has min capacity of 0.5 to max 2.25 GPH.
3. This is a single pipe steam with rads with old mercury P-troll that works [cut out at 1.5 PSI]
4. Almost always, steam is produced and system runs on 0.25 to 0.5b PSI
5. This winter there has been few times P-troll shut the burner about 1 psi per 0-3 PSI gauge attached to boiler via pig tail, other side of the 0-3 PSI gauge, is the old but working P-troll.
6. Boiler also has a 0-30 PSI, front mounted.

below are my questions....
1. if the burner has a smaller nozzle say 0.75 (or 0.65) GPH would there be benefits in terms of efficiency
2. less fuel consumption ?
3. Is my understanding correct, that it is best to heat the radiators slower than faster?


Thanks and Best!

EdTheHeaterMan

The savings may be minimal. At this point, if your burner does not cycle by way of the pressure control on a regular basis, then you are in good shape. If you are interested in tinkering, I assume you have a way to perform a combustion analysis after each adjustment.

You can replace the .85 nozzle with a .75 nozzle and increase the pump pressure in order to get an actual firing rate of .80 GPH (this is assuming you are currently operating at 100 PSI) A small air adjustment closed will result in zero smoke and maybe 12% CO2. then see how the heat operates. If you can maintain comfort on a design temperature day then you are in good shape. You won't know that until the outdoor temperature drops to (or near) the design temperature for your area.

One thing to be apprised of is that there are different air handling parts in the Beckett burner that determine the firing rate. If you are going to burn 2.5o GPH the end cone and the assembly are quite different than the end cone for the 0.50 GPH firing rate. Burner chassis sometimes come with optional damper plates to reduce air-flow that also produce higher static pressure against the smaller openings of the end cone.

Be sure you have all the necessary internal pieces required to use a lower firing rate. sometimes it is not just as simple as changing a nozzle.

Yours Truly,
Mr.Ed

EdTheHeaterMan

This is the manual for the Beckett burner (if that is what you have). Note on page 5 table 2 indicates the different end cones that will work with different firing rates. Also on page 8, there is reference to a Low Firing Rate Baffel. It is # 19 in the diagram of the parts on page 23.
https://www.beckettcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/6104-BAFG.pdf

LS123

thank you so much @EdTheHeaterMan . Information you provided is supper helpful to understand my system even much better.... Believe it or not the Burner was built in 2008 per sticker on it.... I read service tag that say 0.85 GPH.... It really works well....
I live in northwest CT up in the woods and hills compared to living in lower Fairfield county. Last several days it has been single digits plus windy... the steam system is working well.... no short cycling... I tough by having a smaller nozzle installed by a pro and have the person do combustion chamber / exhaust gas analysis when its not too cold, perhaps in early / late spring... I do not think there would be benefits to increase the size of nozzle, but I learned from your feed back something new ... like cone size, pump pressure etc... I believe currently pump pressure is just a tiny bit higher than 100.... No black smoke coming out of the chimney like one of my neighbors.... thank you!

EdTheHeaterMan

If you are going to do this experiment of changing the firing rate by using a pro to make the changes, that can get quite expensive. There are things like what do you do when you have the lower fire rate and it is -3°F (below zero) and you find that the burner runs constantly and you can get the home up to 62°F? If you call the Pro then... to get the firing rate back up, that will be another service visit... and another $ invoice to pay. And it will be when he is very busy with other "No Heat calls". If you were my customer in that situation, I might make you wait until after the deep freeze and get to you later because you have enough heat now to keep from freezing. Others with "no heat" have priority over you. So I would think carefully before lowering the firing rate.

The next thing to consider is how the thermostat is reacting to your heating system during the deep freeze. How many off cycles are there per hour or per day? How long are the off cycles? during the deep freeze?

With that info, you can determine if it is even worth the effort. If the burner is on more than it is off, then leave it alone. If the burner is off more than 1/2 the time, then you are oversized all around. The radiation and the boiler both. Down-firing might lower your fuel usage a few percent but be careful you don't run with a low flue exhaust temperature. You want that to be 400° to 475° to stay in the efficient range without condensation of flue gas. That may cause boiler failure and/or chimney liner failure.

Respectfully Submitted,
Mr.Ed

LS123

Hello @EdTheHeaterMan , the thermostat is new and it kicks in to keep the comfortable temp consistently from range of 68 (or above) all day and night. (i could increase the temp and burner would meet the demand of heat increase) The boiler is over 70 years old (it must be well built) single pipe steam, oil burner looks new although it has a manufactured date of 2008 [ min 0.5 to 2.25 GPH...]

I think the burner has the right size nozzel even to meet these supper cold weather. Before the deep freeze, basement would get uncomfortably warm / hot... I insulated the supply pipes, put two brand new Gorton's #2 (seal and insulated the basement to prevent any air coming inside or going out side ( but there are some places I can feel bit of cold air is entering the basement.... I figured I would leave that so, I can get fresh air in the basement. Basement in mid 60s on a busy day, lower if there is no demand for heat.

I am not sure what is off cycle means... I am guessing this has to do with PSI meeting cut off and boiler keep heating the rads... if that is the case ... for last 4 years, this is the first year P-troll kicked in, and it has been lass than 5 times so far during this heating season... we are at 25 F degrees, and it suppose to feeling like 14 F as of 2:00 pm EST... Burr...

I was only wondering having a less oil consuming Nozzle would save fuel... probably not more savings than a fast food restaurant meal or few cups of coffee per day in my case of savings.

Although I don't see black smoke, when I am out side when the boiler is running I can see heat coming out of top of the chimney ( heat looks like a mirage)

I would not call anyone yet, but know a pro from the site that I would like to have during off heating season to do a full clean up and anything that needs upgrades and replacements....

based on all the info taken into consideration, probably leave things as is for now... I don't want to take any chances..... especially during this below freezing weather....

Although my mind wonder about these things, I like the fact that, I can get knowledge from experience forum members like you and others....

Thank you again!

EdTheHeaterMan

OFF Cycle is when the thermostat is satisfied. The burner is OFF. Then the room temp drops. Then the thermostat brings the burner ON. How long is the ON and how long is the OFF? That is one cycle.

How many cycles per hour? or is the ON cycle longer than an hour?

And it is fun to speculate on the different options. You may save enough for a cup of coffee or even the whole pot. But I would only do this if you have at least a 50% off time during the freeze. Otherwise, your system sounds like it is operating efficiently with near the correct firing rate.

STEVEusaPA

What's the make/model number of your boiler. You're reading .75-2.25 off the burner. You should fire at what's noted by the boiler manufacture.
You're making steam. When you're boiling a pot of water on your stove, do you put the pot on medium because it uses less gas?
Don't downfire. It's less efficient and will burn longer. You're losing money.

LS123

@EdTheHeaterMan , if I keep the heat at consistent level, for example.... it is 25F but feels like 14F (out side.) Since 8 am, perhaps the burner may have run about 3 or 4 times. Each time range from 25 to 40 minutes on Cycle. When the Tstat stop the burner, radiators are hot... hot radiators continue to heat the rooms, and bring the temp up by at least 2 degrees than what is set on Tstat (so Tstat states room is at 70F)... in my case, at most times Tstat reach 68, shuts the burner..but room keeps getting to temp about 70F [because the Rads are Hot), then in between 1 to 1.5 may be) hours max the burner get fired back at request of the Tsat.

In short.....

On Cycle is ... say 40 mins (max may be 1 hr, PSI range from 0.25 to 0.5 during on cycle)

Off Cycle...not running the burner (about 1.5 hours average, until Tstat call for burner again to bring the room temp back to 68 F.)

P-troll started kicking in for the first time in 4 years at this house about a week and half a ago, and it has only done so about 5 times max so far...

Thank you!

EdTheHeaterMan

You know @LS123, your Query reminds me of a story of a steam boiler in Philadelphia that is "Modernized" back in the 1980s. It was in a former movie theater the was converted to a banquet hall by a caterer. He complained of high fuel bills. The burner was firing at about 5.00 GPH. It took 7 hours to develop enough steam to get the unit heater fans to blow warm air into the big room then satisfy the thermostat. He said he burned over 4000 gallons per year and that is just part-time usage, (Not open daily)

He had an old coal-converted boiler with a 1940's Quiet Heat oil burner haphazardly placed in the ash pit of the boiler.

I replaced the flue vent connector and installed a new draft control. I closed up the ash pit opening and filled the base with sand and brick and stone with a layer of 2500° fire brick on top to make a nice floor for the flame. I welded a new fire door on hinges to fir the fire opening of the boiler. I mounted a Carlin Commercial burner on the door and set it at a 12° downslope angle so the fire would not hit the crown sheet of the boiler firebox. I fired the new burner at 3.5GPH

It was an expensive job to sell but I convinced the man to do the job. He was still skeptical somewhat but had some confidence in the job I did. He told me that he went in early to start the boiler for an event. But not 7 hours early, only 3 hours early. To his delight, the burner developed enough steam to get the unit heater fans blowing within 30 minutes and the place was up to 70° within 1hour. By placing the flame 18" higher in the boiler (where the dead man designed it on the drawing board over 100 years ago... 60 years ago then) the boiler operated more efficiently. with less GPH than before. Sealing up cracks and crevices in the boiler joints with furnace cement and sealing the cleanout doors and providing proper draft regulation all contribute to saving 6 hours of run time @ 5.00 GPH done to 1 Hour of run time @ 3.5 GPH.

So I guess I'm saying that the efficiency of your system can get better if you want to play with it a little, but you need to weigh the cost-benefit over the eventual replacement of that old girl.

Mr.Ed

LS123

Hello @STEVEusaPA ... boiler is the original one when the house was built back in late 40s... I have tried to find more info on the Boiler but no help so far... It must have been initially used with coal heating and then converted to oil. It has a cast Iron door that say "Wards Delux", its about 4 feet tall, 2 feet wide and long... there are no indications on what burner or nozzle size should be on the boiler. Previous owner built the house, kept it well maintained... he was a WW2 Pilot, so he knew what he was doing... we bout the house from him and it had documented info on the burner, etc (although burner is from 2008, it looks like new)

Good point there regarding down fire @STEVEusaPA ... thank you...

@EdTheHeaterMan , I agree with you... old man pilot kept things so neatly... I was just wondering if there would be fuel saving...

He lived at this house, and he probably ran in to much more cold weather than my 4 years here at north west CT.

Thank you both... I learned lot about it... Better not damage something that is working

EdTheHeaterMan

You may benefit from a lower firing rate from what you said. If the Cycle is once every 2-hours give or take, and it is off longer than it is on during the sub-zero outdoor temperature that part is important. Then I might try it at your next maintenance/burner tune-up. It won't cost extra then. Try a 0.75 nozzle @ 110 PSI for next year.

EdTheHeaterMan

Since you have just started experiencing the burner cycling by the pressure limit this year, maybe you need to clean or replace some steam vents. The pressure is building up because more than before means the air may not be getting out the way it used to.

Mr.Ed

LS123

thank you @EdTheHeaterMan , yes those nozzles are less than $10. even though it is cold, there are burner off times than run time... if I were to keep a chart... (I would say off time add up to more than 2/3 off with in 24 hours.

Lucky for me, my two (crazy - I mean good way) fun teens visit me few times a month (during winter).... during summer, they are covering them with thick blankets and keep the AC about 63F, in winter time they are wearing shorts and T-shirts, and want to keep the heat about 75F.... but its all worth having them over...

LS123

hi @EdTheHeaterMan , I agree with you! I need to clean the boiler, steam pipes and the radiators after the heating season... I replaced two small rite vent #75s from main supply pipes and put brand new two Gortons #2s. that has helped a lot. I have hard water, so I am sure I need to get the whole system cleaned up off season... for now I am thanks full all in order for this winter season

Steamhead

LS123 said:

Hello @STEVEusaPA ... boiler is the original one when the house was built back in late 40s... I have tried to find more info on the Boiler but no help so far... It must have been initially used with coal heating and then converted to oil. It has a cast Iron door that say "Wards Delux", its about 4 feet tall, 2 feet wide and long... there are no indications on what burner or nozzle size should be on the boiler.

I bet Dunkirk made that boiler, as they did for Wards and Sears for many years.

Post a pic of the boiler, we might find it in one of several reference books.

bburd

@LS123 one key point seems to be missing from this discussion: regardless of the current heat loss of the house, a steam boiler must be fired at a sufficient rate to fill all the radiators with steam. If it is underfired, usually some of the radiators will heat fully while others will not, causing serious balance problems.

This does not happen in hot water or hot air systems, where the firing rate should match the building heat loss. In those systems, the water or air temperature simply falls evenly throughout if the firing rate is reduced. Not so with steam.

From your description of the system operation, your firing rate is matched almost perfectly to the steam load; your pressuretrol very seldom shuts down the burner. Most owners of steam systems are not so lucky.

“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.“ I would leave the nozzle alone if I were you.

LS123

@Steamhead please find below pic of the steam boiler....I am 100% sure the old man WW II fighter pilot found the correct burner 0.85 GPH with 80 degree angle... I just hope I can keep running it for while longer... it is well built and do need some care when its not the heating season....

@bburd good point you have there... right now most days, in about 20 mins + or - 10, I can feel the supply lines, two lines on the main floor going to second floor heat up hot and can not be touched with out feeling the really hot pipes... these two pipes (risers I think they are referred to as...)

yes it is not broken and this is not the best time to break it

yes as most of you have mentioned although the boiler is old and solid, probably have many more years of life... since the new Gorton #2s, insulating supply lines, weather proofing the basements so less heat loss has help the system to function better... yes this system dont need much except a good cleaning in the spring.... yes I am thankful and happy that I have a well functioning steam heat system.... I just randomly wonder about lots of "what ifs" just to satisfy my curiosity ...

thank you all!

EdTheHeaterMan

@LS123

If you are up for a summer project as a DYI (it would be too expensive for a pro to do) here is an idea that will cut your fuel usage. That converted banquet hall I mentioned in my earlier post...Yours is the perfect boiler for this project.



I can give you detailed instructions on how to do it if you are interested. But you must get a pro to fire it up and set the burner up with combustion testing equipment once you are finished with the DYI part.

By placing the fire close to the crown sheet (where the Dead Men designed it to be) you can reduce the firing rate by 15% or more and still get plenty of steam. You may find that you get more pressure than you need and will reduce the firing rate, even more, to get your pressure limit, not to cycle.

Mr.Ed

LS123

@EdTheHeaterMan , yes, absolutely this sounds like a good project for summer, I will have a pro do the firing and combustion analysis. the boiler is solid, but I would like the pro to also give it a good check up and cleaning, replace anything that might need replacing.... although I worked with Tech for nearly 30 years, I like simple things... too many micro chips, programs, etc....this is simple setup.... what ever happened to the good old cars where you could fix it yourself .... I would have to find one at least 30 years old... these new cars... shaking my head... you cant even hardly check oil or transmission fuel... LOL... thank you SO much.... I will contact you this week.... best!