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New Roth 275 tank

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Ibby14
Ibby14 Member Posts: 11
edited February 2021 in Oil Heating
I have a fairly new 275 Roth double walled tank with a 2 line setup (Beckett burner) and I’ve read about the problems with setups with Roth tanks that shutoff around 1/4 tank, beacause there’s not enough to top draw the oil, but works after getting oil delivery. But every time I see someone with this problems on a forum, I never see a solution that they have come to, it just ends, usually after they find the solution to their problems I imagine. Can anyone give me any advice on what they would do? I’ve been told in the long run that tiger loops are just more problems in the long run, something else to go wrong. How about a more powerful pump? Are there any other problems on Roth tanks that are known? Also, can I use a float gauge with a Roth, or do I have to use Roth specific gauges? I thought changing to such a quality tank would give less problems, hopefully it’s just about dialing in the setup to get the best performance out of it. Thanks for your help.

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  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,841
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    Don't blame Roth. Blame the installer.
    I have an outdoor 275 Roth, 1 pipe with a Tiger Loop Ultra feeding a Riello F5, who's pump is weaker than the Suntec pump on your Beckett. Its about a 60 ft run. Never had an issue. 
    STEVEusaPASuperTech
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    One pipe with tiger loop would be better than a 2 pipe. If the level of the oil is the same or higher than the burner, then it's still a gravity job.
    Something else must be going on like a slight vacuum leak or restriction or possible failing oil pump. All of these can be checked by a competent oil burner tech.
    Was oil from the old tank pumped into the new tank at time of changeover?

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Ibby14
    Ibby14 Member Posts: 11
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    No old oil was put into the new tank. Just to be sure I’m turning it off for 1/2 hour or so after delivery, then starting up. I thought I had a problem not getting a full delivery, it would stop when gauge read just above 1/2 tank. I just got a delivery today as the oil delivery guy opened my eyes to something, after putting in only 100 gallons (and the gauge reading only 1/2 tank) the whistle went off, he took off the gauge and when we looked in the tank sure enough the oil level was close to the top. When I reset the gauge line it reads around 3/4 now, probably should get a new one.  So that means when it turned off at what I thought to be 1/4 tank, it was really closer to 1/2., So the good news is that I don’t seem to have a vent problem, but the bad news is that it stopped pulling oil from somewhere around around 1/2. Need a more powerful pump maybe?
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    Stronger pump? Most likely not.
    Draw a picture of the entire set up...actual sketch, pictures or with words.
    Something like..
    Oil tank in basement. Oil line comes out of the tank, then goes back down to the ground. Then there's a firomatic valve, oil filter. The the oil line runs 20' along the floor, then up 2 feet to a firomatic on the oil burner, and which type of burner/boiler or furnace.
    The float gauge provided is usually pretty reliable, there's not really anything else to use for that tank.
    The biggest problem tends to be not properly bleeding them, or a small vacuum leak, which like I said can be checked.
    Another problem is too many fittings. Installer will put a pipe into the tank, come out of the tank, then put a fitting to finish the run. Any fitting can leak air (while under vacuum) but not leak oil. And a slight vacuum leak, especially with a Riello, will cause it to lock out.
    You may be seeing the problem when the tank is low because the level of the fuel in the tank may be lower than the burner and your system is now in lift as opposed to gravity. Lift will pull more of a vacuum and if there is a vacuum leak, pull air into the fuel system.
    So properly check for vacuum leak.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,534
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    There was a guy named Bill Axtman. He was the president of the American Boiler Manufacturers Association way back when. Before that he taught at Springfield Technical Institute which later became Springfield Technical community College. When I went there he had already moved on. But he wrote a lot of articles for Fuel oil magazines back in the day.

    He had one quote which I will paraphrase something like "Most oil burner won't run because the oil can't get from the tank to the burner"

    How true, some things never change

    Sorry for being long winded
  • mikelain13
    mikelain13 Member Posts: 0
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    Maybe the oil pickup tube in the tank is to short?
  • Ibby14
    Ibby14 Member Posts: 11
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    When I first put this tank in, it was given to me from someone that went to NG. So the feed line is the original line that was going to the old tank, then they put in a new 2nd line. The lines come out of the tank up to about 68-70” high, then go down to the floor and run to the furnace (about 15’ away) in the first pic you can see the old line has a yellow valve on it, I’ve been told that’s more for gas lines but will serve the purpose (yes, I’ve been told (after the installation) why the firomatic valve is the one usually used). The other line with the new proper valve on it is the new line. So the lines run along the floor or a few inches above and the old feed line attaches to the filter. The new line attaches to the bottom of the pump. I’ve attached a few pics, let me know if there is something that they don’t show.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
    edited February 2021
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    You have an honest to goodness crap show. Kinked lines, buried line, Teflon tape, steel pipe at the burner, no firomatics, no OSV, no jacketed oil line-and on and on.
    Repipe by code, remove the bypass plug, and bring it back to one pipe. With no vacuum leaks, power purge and that solves all your problems.

    Btw, what’s with the foil tape on the burner?

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    SuperTech
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,165
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    Thats definitely ugly, I can understand why you are experiencing problems.  That's definitely not up to code. Steve is right,  the best thing to do is re-pipe it with new plastic covered 3/8" copper tubing.  Ditch the old oil filter and kinked return line. Install a Tiger Loop Ultra at the burner. 
    Grallert
  • Ibby14
    Ibby14 Member Posts: 11
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    The foil tape on the burner doesn’t have a purpose, it was from an old project and just got slapped on there.. The line isn’t buried it’s just kitty litter to dry up oil that spilled. That’s my house keeping failure. The oil filter casing is old but everything inside of it is clean and brand new. All that’s great and can be done but First thing I would like to do is try and figure out where a vacuum leak might be and try to stop my furnace shutting off in the middle of the night when the level goes down and it’s 5°. Kinked  line? Do you mean the old supply line? What’s the Teflon tape reference your referring to? I would like to get it running faithfully without a tiger loop. Too many small moving parts and is something I know will be an emergency service call in the next 3 - 4 years. It should be able to run reliably without a tiger loop shouldn’t it?
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,841
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    In the second pic, the gas valve (?) Has tephlon tape on the male thread of the flare adapters. 
    There is also tephlon tape on the flare connection itself under the left side flare nut. There's your leak.
    And stop using pump pliers on the fittings. Box wrenches. 
    STEVEusaPAIbby14SuperTech
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    HVACNUT said:

    ...Box wrenches. 

    Flare wrenches anywhere you can is even better.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    CLamb
  • Jon_blaney
    Jon_blaney Member Posts: 316
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    I am willing to bet that the supply line is not all the way to the bottom of the tank. Could the oil lines be confused. Supply line got switched with the return? or The old line is not long enough for the new tank?
  • Ibby14
    Ibby14 Member Posts: 11
    edited February 2021
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    Thanks for the input on the Teflon tape HVACNUT, that was the problem. Put on a new (and proper) valve with no tape, and we could see an immediate improvement with pump pressure with no air leaks. I asked my guy about using a jacketed line and was told there was no reason to since it’s all indoors and not buried. I’m glad I didn’t put on that TigerLoop. Just something else to go wrong. Of course I bought one expecting to need it, someone on eBay is going to get a good deal with some flex line; I do like the filter on the tigerloop though, it’s good and proper heavy duty, they should all be made like that. Thanks for the help guys, it’s good to know there are ears to bend when needed.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,534
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    @Ibby14

    Nothing wrong with teflon tape. In the old days we used it on oil all the time. The pump manufacturers decided that it could get inside the pipe or pump and made it too easy for knuckleheads to over tighten fittings. It's not a problem if it's used properly....................but they outlawed it anyhow.

    One win for the no Tiger loop
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,841
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    @Ibby14 Nothing wrong with teflon tape. In the old days we used it on oil all the time. The pump manufacturers decided that it could get inside the pipe or pump and made it too easy for knuckleheads to over tighten fittings. It's not a problem if it's used properly....................but they outlawed it anyhow. One win for the no Tiger loop
    Tephlon tape used on threads I won't go to war about. But tape on a flare?
    That's just silly. 
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,165
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    I wouldn't sell the tiger loop, especially if you have the ultra version.  The spin on oil filter is the best oil filter available.  The tiger loop will help improve combustion if the oil tank is outdoors or in a cold garage.  I wouldn't worry about things to go wrong with a tiger loop. I have never had any service calls related to a problem with a tiger loop. 
    Grallert