mounting a beckett on a pensotti

archibald tuttle

ok, so that could be something like putting a fiat engine in a lambroghini but i'd rather spend the money on the cast iron and i got a lot of welded mount becket burners laying around. i assuming that as long as i stick to the pump pressure specs and nozzle specs for the carlin option i might be in the ball park and then just dial it for smoke, draft and combustion.

this will be the first pensotti i've gotten a hold of because I've been putting in all those used cast iron and steel boilers that the utility replaced with condensing boilers for folks but i've been eager to get a hold of one of these and got a good price for the boiler less burner and i'm going for it.

any thoughts on set up for draft, etc. would be great. and since i've been all NG and propane for a while i can't find my old draft gauge. is there any reason why i can't use my UEI 201 for draft with one of the metal l adapters as the insert into firebox and smoke pipe? unless i got a plugged boiler or something which is going to have obvious warning signs i'm not going to be in an environment of positive draft where i'd be risking hitting the sensors with smoke i don't think but maybe i should hit up a friend for the real thing, abundance of caution or . . . ?

i have been using that 201 to measure steam pressures as against gauges and controls with no loop but with a high isolated riser without getting any massive heat carrying to the sensor, i'm assuming that might be another theoretical no no that as long as you think it out you can get away with, at least i have.

thanks

brian

EdTheHeaterMan

The static pressure of the burner fan is the first thing that comes to mind. Get the manual online for the boiler... I think they operate with slight pressure in the chamber. I could be wrong. That said, have an oil valve on the pump and a 30 second or a few minute burner off delay for the burner fan to cool off the end of the burner near the combustion chamber.

Regarding measuring devices for pressure and vacuum (draft). The inches mercury or inches water column are still the same regardless of the tool that you use to measure them. I have a UEI in my combustion kit with a TESTO analyzer and a Bacharach smoke test pump.

STEVEusaPA

Whats the model # of the Pensotti, and which Beckett burner? Should only be an AFII or NX. You need the static pressure of these burners.

Steamhead

STEVEusaPA said:

..... Should only be an AFII or NX. You need the static pressure of these burners.

This.

The reason is that these Euro boilers have a considerable amount of back-pressure in their flue passages that the burner must work against. The standard AF or AFG just won't cut it, and you'll be cleaning it out frequently.

Beckett's OEM Spec Guide is here- Pensotti is on page 56:

https://www.beckettcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/6711-OEM-Residential-Oil-Spec-Guide.pdf

archibald tuttle

@EdTheHeaterMan and @STEVEusaPA : This is sid harvey off the shelf recent unit DK2 four section. I've got an AFII. thanks for the heads up on the fan pressure capability. I wouldn't have suspected it needed that much more thinking that the three passes were offset by larger passageways but i haven't had my hands on one of these . i get it tomorrow.

and if figured the UEI would be OK even quickly testing a firebox in the single digits of WC if there is positive pressure . thanks

brian

archibald tuttle

@STEVEusaPA so i notice that the beckett setup book specifies the AFII for the S series only. I can't really find any way to categorize the back pressure as between the S, BL and DK lines. I'm betting I could get this AFII to run ok but its probably on the edge and obviously i don't want to just be on the edge of dirty ops. I do have a friend who would kick me a Riello F3 but the 4 section just gets into the F5 by design specs between Riello and Pensotti (the 3 section ships with an F3). But if i was going to run the F5 low in its operating range I assume the F3 could cover? thoughts anyone? Bueller . . . Bueller (that's just the tag for everbody besides Steve )

PS it's a conversion package so it is not a welded flange. i'd need a depth spec for the tube into the firebox. he told me its got a decent flange clamp onto the tube. i've not seen this version. don't know if it needs any 'gasketing' to discourage positive pressure escape although what he described might be adequate at these relative low positive pressures. The F3 seems like it could be setup oil delivery wise for the energy spec on the DK2-4 which is .65 @ 160 psi or about .82 gph actual I get by conversion. But there isn't really a capacity spec for the air fan. The guys at pensotti (i.e. granby) have backed off the beckett because they never got the air delivery they needed. Now maybe that happened before the NX but since I don't have an NX anyway I'm certainly not going to make this installation the test case. And I'm cheap, not chinsey. I could pick up a used F5 so I'm more looking into the theory that worried about $250.

and per @EdTheHeaterMan I don't know if the control logic on the riello maintains the air for a short afterpurge of heat from burner end of firebox or if the higher air delivery during operation and burner head design obviates the need for that .

STEVEusaPA

You're on your own. If Beckett could get an AFG to work, they would let you know. Probably the same with Riello, but maybe not. Talking to Riello about a specific boiler/burner combo that Burnham wasn't spec'd for a burner, Riello told me it would work fine, it was Burnham that didn't want to offer too many burner options.

You seem to indicate you are getting a bunch of used boilers. Where are the burners that were OEM installed?

For the F3, if the insertion depth/air tube is correct, and you know enough about nozzle selection and combustion to make it work-proper draft, true zero smoke, no impingement, not making much CO, it will probably work fine.
Riello's initial training classes were all about how to measure a chamber, know the max firing rate of the appliance, and retrofit their burner to work.
See if you can find "Riello 40 Series Oil Burners retrofit application" Training Manual. It's 64 pages and doesn't seem to be available online-maybe classroom only.
Keep in mind, from a liability issue, it might be all on you.

archibald tuttle

STEVEusaPA said:

You seem to indicate you are getting a bunch of used boilers. Where are the burners that were OEM installed?

Actually, this is the rare case for me of a new boiler. i am usually putting in used boilers but this is one of those times where i have to rig it into a basement and get the old one out and given the accesibility issues not one of those cases where i said let me grab one for $200 that is headed to the scrapper.

but i'm doing it for a friend so trying to keep it as inexpensive as possible. So we could save $700 buying the boiler without the burner and my first inclination was, we'll just put this AFII on here. but all indications are that air delivery is right on the edge for that beckett and if i have to acquire a different burner i figured i might as well grab a used riello as try some beckett that might just be OK.

That isn't to run down the NX but I haven't messed with them enough to get a feel for the difference. Since I don't want the install to be on the edge where you gotta be worried that there isn't enough static pressure i'm thinking i'll go the route of the used F5 burner. those are more readily available than pensotti used boiler combinations. I did find an old "S" but with the amount of work involved to get it into the basement I decided for once to go new.

One more anamoly in learning the riello landscape is that I'm digging to make sure i have the adpaters for the pump pressure gauge and when i was looking for the specs for those came across the Westwood T20 which tests vacuum and pressure. I don't know if those aren't in line tests but are from dual tappings on the pump where you can test both. In filter critical application im used to a vacuum gauge to indicate the filter condition although hadn't seen that approach in residential oil. more like if you aren't getting reliable delivery you check the filters and oil lines, but nothing wrong with science . . . But of course that T20 kit can't be backwards adapted to standard pumps so I'm not really interested in getting into carrying two test setups. And Westwood has very poor (as in no) online documentation, so might as well add one more area of discussion to this wide ranging frolic. thanks.

STEVEusaPA

Most pump test kits have Riello adapters, or you can get them at Sids.

Steamhead

Nothing wrong with the NX. I have one on my boiler. Never a problem:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/176551/nice-job-beckett

archibald tuttle

Steamhead said:

Nothing wrong with the NX. I have one on my boiler. Never a problem:

not sure the internal geometry of the V14 you're running the NX on or the overfire draft/pressure. There just does not seem to be a comparative spec for the air delivery capabilities of burners. They just have verbiage like "high static pressure". And that is the concern I have in putting it on a pensotti.

archibald tuttle

and the anti-climax here . . . sid's shot me a real decent price for the complete unit with Riello F5 when i went in to pick up the block and skin so i'm going stock on this. When i've had more chance to play around with this setup maybe i'd be more comfortable pluggin and playing, but i once again really appreciate the crowdwisdom here and regret i won't be seeing you guys off the wall at AHR (or whatever the correct alphabet soup is) show this year.

Big Ed_4

Three pass , positive pressure boilers are tuned with the exact GPH and spray patten . Normally narrow angle and sometimes blast tube is inserted further into rather than flush . You need to go by the book on this boiler . Good stuff