American standard efficiency/heatloss

CaseyO

Hey all. My girlfriend recently purchased a house on long island that I've been helping remodel and modernize. It has the original boiler, an American standard tankless from the 50s I believe. It gets serviced every year and we were told it's still going strong, and getting around 70% efficiency.
I'm from northern Ny and have always heated with wood, so I'm pretty new to boilers and oil. The main question I have is about the boiler itself. Since it's the source of hot water it still runs a lot during the summer  and the heat it puts off pretty much renders the basement unusable. It's not uncommon for it to be 90 degrees down there and I'm just wondering if thats normal.
Second question is, I've heard that these boilers are good and all, but it's not uncommon to spend 4 grand in a year on oil fir this thing, Which seems pretty high.
Seeing how the boiler is so old, does it make sense to look for a new system, or stick with the old.

STEVEusaPA

Where did 4 grand come from? How many gallons is more of a number to know.
You're probably somewhere around 40% total system efficiency with most of the oil you burn going up the chimney.
You should replace it.
If you go with an EK, I'd bet your payback would be pretty quick, then you would be saving tons of money each and every year after that.
https://energykinetics.com/the-worry-free-boiler/
They're very big on Long Island, top notch customer service.

CaseyO

About 1250 gallons a year at this point. Is it normal to radiate that much heat?
Energy kinetics was the company I was looking at. Good to hear they're recommended.

mattmia2

I assume the DHW comes from a tankless coil rather than an indirect tank? An indirect tank would be a lot more efficient with that boiler. If it is a tankless coil the boiler has to stay hot year round. If it were an indirect it would only have to fire and heat when it needed to heat the indirect tank. At this point replacement of the whole system is probably the best option although there is potentially a lot to be gained by setting it up cold start with an indirect water heater.

STEVEusaPA

Depends on a number of factors for how much oil you use-thermostat setting, hot water usage, etc. The biggest waste of oil is if you have a dripping hot water faucet.
The best money you can spend first is tightening up the envelope.
Then, a complete heat loss to tell you what size boiler you need.
I wouldn't be surprised if the EK saves you at least 30% on your oil. If you use 2000g for the entire year, right off the bat 600 gallons is about $1500 at today'prices.
Edit: Based on those numbers, your heat loss is about 70K BTU's. The EK, with tightening up your envelope, quick calc (without me being there) maybe even up to 50% savings.
That's real money.

CaseyO

Yes it's a tankless coil. The thing is pretty damn hot all the time. I have the water system buttoned up pretty tight, fixed all the faucets and a toilet so nothing leaks now.
If it comes down to it, is there any point saving the boiler or trying to sell it?

STEVEusaPA

I meant the house gets buttoned up. Windows, sealing, insulation (especially attic).
I think if my math is close to being right, you'd replace it.
The boiler is going no where, if it doesn't leak. But you're wasting a lot of money. No one is buying that boiler, and you'd have to pay to get it out, even more if it has asbestos.

Steamhead

I think @DanHolohan once said you could cremate someone in an Arcoliner and the neighbors would never know.

Seriously, it's time to plan for a new boiler. The only thing even remotely efficient on that one is the Carlin burner.

DanHolohan

That was an Ideal Redflash. With an Arcoliner, you have to chop up the body. 

Steamhead

Actually, with an Arcoliner you might get a #9 smoke for a few minutes. Cutting up the body would depend on whether the Arcoliner had enough sections to swallow it in one piece.

The article that came from was "Doing the Job... Indirectly" and it appeared in the September 1992 issue of Plumbing & Mechanical magazine. You really should do another collection of your articles- maybe "Ye Compleate Workes of Dan Holohan Revisited"

DanHolohan

Hmm. 🤔

CaseyO

Thanks for al the info, I appreciate the help.

EdTheHeaterMan

Within the past 4 years, I had a customer with an oil-fired boiler from the 1930s that heated water from a tankless coil. It was in a vacation community on a barrier island, so there was a lot of hot water usage in the summer. in the winter, it heated the house comfortably When the heater has an electrical problem that fried the burner motor, stack relay ignition transformer, and some of the aquastat contacts, I priced the repairs for her and she, of course, asked how much was a new heater? When that was out of the question, I offered the old-time coal boiler retrofit. We called it a "Complete Modernization" (or Mod) back in the day. I also said we could mount the new burner in the fire door, (not on the floor where the ash pit used to be.

I wanted my son to see how we did stuff back in the day.

The "Mod" was chosen with a 3-year burner warranty from Beckett so I added the warranty to the rest of the controls and the labor the Mod. After covering every nook and cranny of the boiler with furnace cement, to minimize leaks, installing a Beckett AFG, new vent connector with draft diverter and a Honeywell L7224U aquastat to the old girl, we started her up and for a 74.5% combustion efficiency with adding bricks for baffles and playing with different nozzles. Customer was very pleased.

Then the summer families with kids and grandkids showed up. NOT ENOUGH HOT WATER!
adjusted the aquastat a little hotter and next weekend, NOT ENOUGH HOT WATER!
This went on for 5 to 6 weeks until I increased the firing rate and the boiler temperature much higher than I wanted to for efficient operation.

Turns out the tankless coil had never been flushed in the past 40 years that she would remember, so there was a lot of build-up, I'm sure, making the heat transfer from the boiler to the DHW very slow. After all was said and done, the combustion efficiency is at 69.8% and the boiler temperature is way high making stand by losses greater.

She did save on oil but I was disappointed that I did not do a better job by keeping the old monster fuel guzzler. The customer is happy that the oil bill is a little lower and the hot water is the way it used to be before the electrical problem.

So my advice, get the new EK boiler. They have an oil-fired or gas-fired Combi. that would be your best bet. if you have a bit more in the budget, go for the indirect tank for hot water.

mattmia2

Wait, why were they getting enough hot water before the new burner and controls?

And wouldn't an indirect maybe a better solution to that than keeping raising the temp that you kept the boiler at constantly?