Peerless WBV-03-WPCT with 40G tank vs. System2000 EK1 with 40G tank

gnagyg

What should I do? I am a home owner and I am absolutely clueless about heating systems ... thanks :-)

STEVEusaPA

Well for starters, pricing isn't allowed.
When you say 30g and 40g are you referring to an indirect tank?
Both boilers with indirects, the prices should be a little closer. EK's are a little more money, but much more efficient. Their customer service is top notch. I wouldn't even consider the Peerless for oil.
We also no nothing about your present situation, near boiler piping, etc.

gnagyg

Sorry - the tank info was a mistake and i have corrected it. i currently have a cheap boiler with no hot water holding tank. if I have this replaced with with the peerless without the tank it would be less ... my question: is a IDH water tank really worth it? is more for the system2000 worth it (how long does it take to the break even)?

HVACNUT

Again, pricing is not discussed on the forum.
The 2 systems are so different it's not even funny.
Do you wanna watch the Superbowl on an eight inch black and white tv, or be there sitting on the 50 yard line?

gnagyg

i took all the prices out. i apologize.

Peerless and the System 2000 EK1 are the 2 options I am being offered. the sales rep told me that the EK1 is more efficient and very quiet. but i have not been able to determine how much more efficient... we currently have a boiler that is 27 years old and does both: heat the house (via baseboard) and provide hot water. i am confused by why i would need a separate water tank, still heated by the boiler, which adds a considerable amount to the replacement costs ...

STEVEusaPA

EK also has a boiler that uses a flat plate heat exchanger, and is super efficient, so you won’t necess need a tank.
Have you had a look at their website?
https://energykinetics.com/#boiler-products

SuperTech

I've worked on many EK and Peerless boilers. I have a WBV-03 in my house but I would much rather have the System 2000. The WBV is a good basic boiler and its durable and reliable. The EK is much more quiet and efficient and when its installed and set up right it doesn't require as much cleaning. EK is a top notch company and the boilers are made right in New Jersey.

BDR529

Peerless is cast iron with Honeywell controls. Very easy to get parts all off the shelf.

Ek is steel with proprietary controls you can't get at a supply house. Dealer only.

Covid has created new challenges, Keep it simple.

STEVEusaPA

BDR529 said:

Peerless is cast iron with Honeywell controls. Very easy to get parts all off the shelf.

Ek is steel with proprietary controls you can't get at a supply house. Dealer only.

Covid has created new challenges, Keep it simple.

I disagree, and wouldn’t make a long term decision based on a temporary problem.
EK would be the better option from a system, efficiency, and comfort issue. There’s only really one proprietary part, which can be temporarily bypassed.
Considering the OP is a stones throw away, and their superior customer service, I would take that every day.

Robert O'Brien

gnagyg said:

i took all the prices out. i apologize.

Peerless and the System 2000 EK1 are the 2 options I am being offered. the sales rep told me that the EK1 is more efficient and very quiet. but i have not been able to determine how much more efficient... we currently have a boiler that is 27 years old and does both: heat the house (via baseboard) and provide hot water. i am confused by why i would need a separate water tank, still heated by the boiler, which adds a considerable amount to the replacement costs ...

Standby or idle loss is a huge factor in the inefficiency of oil boilers with internal tankless coils. The boiler must be kept hot 24/7/365. Much better to store DHW in a well insulated tank for use when needed and allow the boiler to run on demand. EK goes one step further and uses an external plate type HX to produce DHW which allows the residual heat left in the boiler to be recaptured as well as producing copious amounts of DHW

gnagyg

thanks for your helpful input! is there a website where you can run cost calculations based on efficiency?

Roger

Thank you for your question, @gnagyg - I appreciate everyone’s kind comments and replies about Energy Kinetics.

I’ll confirm that our boilers also use off the shelf components, except our Energy manager which carries a lifetime protection plan and can be bypassed by moving a couple wires in less than five minutes for emergency heat (or by plugging in our “service board” in 30 seconds).

The Department of Energy’s Brookhaven National Lab produced a report that compares different classes of boilers, including System 2000. From that study and the idle loss calculations, we created a savings comparison tool on our website which is based on classes of boilers like a cast-iron boiler with an indirect tank and even modulating condensing boilers.

Here’s a link for reference:
https://energykinetics.com/high-efficiency-boilers/

Please feel free to contact us directly, we typically respond to the contact us form on our website even on weekends. Or call us at 800 323-2066 during business hours.

Best,
Roger

STEVEusaPA

https://energykinetics.com/high-efficiency-boilers/
https://energykinetics.com/wp-content/img/afue-boilers-annual-efficiency-from-doe-study-chart.jpg
https://energykinetics.com/afue/
Probably all you need in these links.

gnagyg

today someone suggested this here: system 2000 ascent combi, without a hot water tank (there is just 2 of us living in the house and we usually travel a lot ...

any thoughts?

Roger

Thank you, @gnagyg .

I understand that you currently have a tankless coil boiler, although in general, if you have a tank we recommend that you keep a tank. If you don't, it's a very nice upgrade as they offer the most hot water at the best efficiency. Otherwise, if you have two or more zones, we recommend a system with an Energy Manager (which also uses a tank for hot water).

The Ascent Combi is designed to offer higher efficiency and much better hot water output and temperature control than found in typical tankless coil boilers. Its efficiency and hot water output are not as exceptional as found with System 2000 and our other boilers that incorporate hot water tanks and Energy Manager thermal purge controls.

There may be other reasons why your heating professional would recommend one of our products over another; these are general guidelines.

We are also available at (800) 323-2066 to help directly if you'd like to call us.

Best,
Roger

gnagyg

hi roger: we have 2 zones - upstairs and downstairs. would we lose this with the ascent combi?

BDR529

STEVEusaPA said:

BDR529 said:

Peerless is cast iron with Honeywell controls. Very easy to get parts all off the shelf.

Ek is steel with proprietary controls you can't get at a supply house. Dealer only.

Covid has created new challenges, Keep it simple.

I disagree, and wouldn’t make a long term decision based on a temporary problem.
EK would be the better option from a system, efficiency, and comfort issue. There’s only really one proprietary part, which can be temporarily bypassed.
Considering the OP is a stones throw away, and their superior customer service, I would take that every day.

What's the temporary problem?

Efficiency, just splittin' hairs they all run well.
But still a proprietary part available to dealers only for a steel low mass boiler.

As for comfort will it bring me slippers and a sandwich?

All comes down to location. Since OP has such great customer service well then, decision made.

Roger

Thank you for you post @BDR529 .

I'd like to take the opportunity to clarify that we offer our live tech support to and we sell parts to all heating professionals, not just dealers. We have a deep inventory of parts to cover all products produced since 1979. We also have warehouses in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maine, and Fairbanks, Alaska. We also have 9 territory managers that locally support all of New England and Mid-Atlantic states north of Virginia plus Alaska.

Our products are also proven 30+ year steel boilers, and the original unit tested by the Department of Energy from February 27, 1980 is still running today.

Best,
Roger

Roger

Sorry I missed responding to your comment, @gnagyg !

The Ascent Combi and the Ascent Plus Combi can both work with multiple zones, so no problem there. We recommend our systems with an Energy Manager as they are more efficient and will pay for themselves over time, especially when you consider a 30 year life.

Best,
Roger

STEVEusaPA

BDR529 said:

STEVEusaPA said:

BDR529 said:

Peerless is cast iron with Honeywell controls. Very easy to get parts all off the shelf.

Ek is steel with proprietary controls you can't get at a supply house. Dealer only.

Covid has created new challenges, Keep it simple.

I disagree, and wouldn’t make a long term decision based on a temporary problem.
EK would be the better option from a system, efficiency, and comfort issue. There’s only really one proprietary part, which can be temporarily bypassed.
Considering the OP is a stones throw away, and their superior customer service, I would take that every day.

What's the temporary problem?

Efficiency, just splittin' hairs they all run well.
But still a proprietary part available to dealers only for a steel low mass boiler.

As for comfort will it bring me slippers and a sandwich?

All comes down to location. Since OP has such great customer service well then, decision made.

I was referring to your quote:
"...Covid has created new challenges, Keep it simple..." I don't see how covid makes you pick a less efficient boiler, and sacrifice comfort.
If you take 10 minutes to either watch one of EK's videos, or look at their operation manual, you would see it's rather simple.
It's not splitting hairs-the efficiency, and total system efficiency are rather substantial.
Your comment "...As for comfort will it bring me slippers and a sandwich?" doesn't really apply to the conversation.

gnagyg

Roger said:

Sorry I missed responding to your comment, @gnagyg !

The Ascent Combi and the Ascent Plus Combi can both work with multiple zones, so no problem there. We recommend our systems with an Energy Manager as they are more efficient and will pay for themselves over time, especially when you consider a 30 year life.

Best,
Roger

here is what we are zooming in on:

InstallationofSystem2000EK1AscentPlusOil-FiredCombiPowerVentWater Boiler. Includes (1) Honeywell Zone valve, (1) Watts Water Feed with BackFlow, (1) Circulator with Purge Station, (1) Air Scoop, (1) Expansion Tank, (1) Oil Filter, (1) Fresh Air Intake from outside to boiler system manager and New Exhaust Pipe up to 5 Feet. Tie into existing heating lines. Includes removal of old boiler (if applicable) 3/4" Zone Valve
Install a Aqua Pure Scale Stopper for cold water supply to coil or heat exchanger

you said I can have two separate zones on this?

If somebody decides to do that at a later point, would it be possible to connect an indirect heat water tank?

what is the difference between the standard and the plus model?

thanks!

Roger

Thank you @gnagyg .

It's great to hear you are getting closer to a decision that suits your needs.

Two zones is OK with an Ascent and this looks like you have one zone quoted with the base system and another quoted later. You should confirm with your heating professional to ensure they have the proper parts and zone valves included.

You can add an indirect tank later, although it is much more cost effective to do it at the same time. Also, we do recommend a boiler with an Energy Manager control to get the most out of a system with a tank, and also for your system with multiple zones.

The Ascent Combi (87 AFUE) is chimney vented, and the Ascent Plus Combi (91 AFUE, non-condensing) is vented in polypropylene - either sidewall or a flexible chimney liner.

Best,
Roger

HVACNUT

IMO, if there's going to be an indirect, then put in the EK-1 Frontier or Resolute with their 40 gal water heater. With the combi, it needs the Manager and additional zoning anyway, so use the system specifically designed for your needs. And you get the added efficiency. 

gnagyg

the reason why I am considering the System 2000 EK1 AscentPlus Oil without a tank is, that we are just 2 people living here and we don’t use that much hot water. also, we often travel, for up to 3 months at a time, when we set the home temperature to 50F and completely turn off the water and open the faucets .... what are your thoughts?

Roger

They are both great boilers, although we recommend the System 2000 over the Ascent. 

Based on average home fuel consumption and fuel prices, we would expect that System.2000 will pay for itself vs the Ascent Plus Combi and that the Ascent Plus Combi will pay for itself over a tankless coil boiler. If you have to line your chimney, then we’d recommend the Resolute vs System 2000.

Roger

gnagyg

We have no chimney, on the vent to the outside with a fan

Roger

We'd recommend the Resolute RT or 90+ Resolute for sidewall venting in polypropylene, like the Ascent Plus Combi but with a tank and Energy Manager.

STEVEusaPA

If you're away like you mention, I'd also make sure you have a low water cut-off for the boiler, and take advantage of alarm contacts on the burner's primary control to notify you of a boiler failure. Then you can call for service and have it fixed before the house freezes up.

gnagyg

our new ascent+ combi will be installed in 2 weeks ... lets hope this is the right choice. not an easy decision ;-)

Roger

Thank you for your decision to go with Energy Kinetics, @gnagyg !   We’re here if you need us for any reason, so please let us know if we can help going forward. 

Best,
Roger