Boiler replacement

hot_rod

That is probably a lot more control than you need, it is for staging multiple boilers.
A basic outdoor reset control on the boiler with radiant might save some operating cost. A tekmar 265 for about $160.

You might find a contractor familiar with tekmar to assure your system would benefit, also to install and set parameters for your application.
It would be worth a service call from a local knowledgable hydronics guy to look over the big picture.

Plenty of contractors in Colorado familiar with tekmar. Shamrock Sales in Denver reps most of Colorado, they could point you to a knowledgable contractor in your area.
therese@shamrocksalesinc.com

Or Gary Socha out of New Mexico may cover that area for tekmar
support@sochacompany.com

Dahl Durango is a knowledgable wholesaler in your area.

The more locals you ask, the better your chances of finding a local pro.

mazz

Thanks Bob , appreciate the contacts & feedback ! 

Mazz 

EdTheHeaterMan

Two Questions:
1. What model Weil McLain boiler to you have?
2. Is the cost to operate it excessive?

Since we usually don't discuss the price of different items regarding specific suppliers fuel price or contractors job Quotes for the most part, I can ask: are your gallons of propane gas more than 400 gallons per winter? do you rent or own the tanks? The reason is the percentage of savings may be less than that needed to offset the price of the control. Are we saving 10% of $500.00 or $3,000.00? This info will help us guide you to a course of action.

mazz

There are 2 1,000 gallon tanks , previous owner said he used 4,000 $ worth of propane but only set temp at around 60 degrees all winter . House has never been lived in , we will be the 1st if we purchase after the inspections. Two Weil McLain GV gold boilers I am told they are Series 3 , with 2 indirect tanks opposite end of home upstairs . 20 years old & in great condition, cast iron . We’ll get more info after the Inspections this week & also serviced over the years by the plumber who has done the service. 

I just want to get an overall assessment of the system & cost replacement on whether it’s cost effective & efficient to replace both or stay with the original boilers .......just looking at ALL the alternatives before we make a decision. Boilers are both 175,000 units but only used to heat bottom floor which is 4,200 sq ft & supply DHW . Thanks 

JUGHNE

IIWM and I was looking at this house, I would first find out what type of tubing is buried in the concrete.....especially if it is of the oxygen barrier type. For 4200 feet of slab there has to be a couple thousand feet of tubing in the concrete, IMO.
To me this could be a deal breaker no matter how much I wanted the house.

Can you bring the plumber you speak of to the inspections with your interest in mind? Most home inspectors will not know much about this system.

Did you say there are 2 gas furnaces in the house?
That might mean they do the actual heating for the house and the infloor tubing is just to maintain warm floors.

The piping, tubing, pumps and boilers that you can see in the boiler rooms can be easily replaced if it fails. But it could be newer than what is in the floor.

Also if purchased, I would live there for at one heating season to see how things worked.
And be assured of LP gas delivery to the site in the middle of winter if needed. Do you have 2 tanks?
Are the boiler systems filled with glycol?

You would have that first winter to look thru the books for any future improvements.

Note: I see 2 tanks reference.

So house is 23 years old and never lived in....??????
Because??

mazz

The Home Inspector I am using is experienced in radiant heating systems & log homes , also I have to other experienced plumbers coming to inspect the house as well. What’s the significance of Oxygen barrier tubing ?? As long as it’s PEX ? ? The radiant heating is divided up into zones 4-5 & controlled with thermostats in each room . I was told each boiler on opposite ends of the home control & supply the radiant heating into two half’s of the bottom floor but will know more once the inspections are complete . The furnaces are for mostly upstairs heating & master bath / bedroom downstairs far end of house . 

My main concern is the tubing used for radiant heating through out the bottom floor ......I’ll take pics from the manifolds & definitely let you know on Monday .....really appreciate the advice & feedback . 

Thanks 

JUGHNE

$4000 a year....now part of that was used by the gas furnaces.
For easy math let's say half to the furnaces and half to the boilers. (remember no one used any hot water).
The furnaces are as efficient as practically possible. No upgrade to higher efficiency there.

So 2000 a year for boilers, up grade and save even 15% at most, that is $300 a year. ( I doubt if 300 would clean 2 new mod con boilers....needed every two years mininum) IMO

hot_rod

As @JUGHNE suggested, if the boilers are in good shape, I'd run them. Maybe get a spare ignitor or see if the contractors that are coming by keep for repair parts.
That was a nice, and very common boiler in the early radiant days.
With furnace back up, it's not like you will be left in the cold.

I heated a number of log homes in the Utah mountains, it can be a big load, depending on the log type and construction. It was rare to be able to heat them with just floor radiant., most require supplemental heat. The heat load tends to go up if logs start drying, splitting, shrinking, etc. I remember being able to stick my hand in some of the splits that opened years down the road.
keep some humidity in the home year around, especially winter. wood shrinkage is directly related to indoor humidity.

A blower door test would be the number to know, infiltration will drive your heating cost, typically. If the heat bills were maintaining 60F, be prepared for them to go up.

Now is the time, before the end of August to buy or lock in LP prices.
Google LP prices to see what the current rate is in your area.
you definitely do not want to buy mid or end of heating season

mazz

Thanks Hot rod ! Really appreciate the advice & info.....helps out a lot . I definitely will take your advice . 

Mazz ⚾️👍

mattmia2

the tubing has to be oxygen barrier to protect the ferrous components of the system like the pumps and boilers amd usually some piping. the air elimination removes mosrt of the dissolved air from the system and what is left forms rust with the ferrous components. if you keep adding oxygen either because of oxygen permeable piping or because you keep adding new water because of a leak, it will continue to rust the boiler and other ferrous components.

mazz

Appreciate JUGHNE, I know it’s difficult getting an exact number on the cost , your right they didn’t use the DHW since no one lived there but also the furnaces were not used for upstairs only ......I am hoping to get the boilers serviced & get the most out of them , would any Controllers (Tekmar ) improve efficiency , plus replacing the older pumps with ECM technology ones help cut energy ( electric cost ) ? Thank !
Mazz 

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

How well is the house insulated?  Double-glazed windows? Wall insulation? Attic insulation? The original slab is probably not insulated, so downward and slab-edge losses are a given. 

If the existing insulation is not ideal, you might consider tightening up the house before doing anything to the heating system. 

JUGHNE

It seems that in Colorado in 1997 there would be at least outside edge/perimeter insulation.

Then sitting empty since built 23 years ago there have been no occupants to add moisture to the interior. As Hot Rod pointed out the logs tend to dry out, shrinking to allow air gaps for infiltration. The blower door air loss test may be worth the money spent.

If you close on this I would suggest buying a Flir camera, ($300-500) to look around this coming winter. If you see a lot of heat loss outside, around the perimeter, then it may be worth while to spend the money next spring to excavate around the perimeter down maybe 4' and install at least 2" of waterproof styrofoam blue/green board.....not bead board.....against the foundation walls. Perhaps money well spent that has constant ROI.
That camera would also let you see the heating tubing in the floor. Very handy for a lot of uses.

Early floor heated homes in the 50's had no insulation at all and it was said that the flowers would bloom year around. (NY & NJ)

EBEBRATT-Ed

Looks to me like the original installer knew what he was doing. I would have a good heat loss done and compare it to what you have.

If it aint broke dont fix it i wouldn't go looking for trouble unles s they are grossly oversized

mazz

Hey Alan, appreciate the response & yes the original slab was insulated with styrofoam panels on outside of slab, my engineer said they did an outstanding job back then as he really noticed under a Large crawl space on an outside covered decking area. Plus you can notice the styrofoam along perimeter of foundation , although top portion has worn off in certain areas . They also used styrofoam spray under rafters up in crawl spaces & in other areas of structure. Double pain windows throughout log home too with lots of glass & morning sun that takes advantage of living / dining area especially in winter months. Two huge wood fireplaces that have never been used & I am looking to convert at least one into cast iron insert w/ blowing ( wood burning ) to use as alternate heating source during colder months . It has huge ceilings in entrance/ living room areas where both fireplaces are located. Thanks again for your feedback & comments . 

Mazz