Natural Gas Home Stove CO2 output?

CLamb

At what rate do the burners on a natural gas fueled home stove emit Carbon Dioxide? I tried searching the web but I only found numbers for Carbon Monoxide and Nitrogen Oxides.

Zman

I would guess that it would depend on the quality of the combustion. I would think around 6%-8% CO2

Jamie Hall

Do you really mean Carbon Dioxide? Which is basically harmless (well, maybe except for the climate... cue argument)? If it really is Carbon Dioxide you're after, it will be somewhere around 1 cubic foot per 1,000 BTU. But that depends too on how well the burners are adjusted; a more accurate statement would be about 1 cubic foot of Carbon Dioxide and Carbon Monoxide, combined, for each 1,000 BTU put out. If the thing is adjusted well, and the burners are good, the Carbon monoxide output should be relatively reasonable.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Co...carbon monoxide is the potential problem. During normal operation it isn't an issue. A Cold pan of water on the stove the cold pan will chill the flame and make some Co just until the water warms up

pecmsg

All Fuel burning appliances create CO. Carbon Monoxide. Most domestic stoves do not burn enough fuel for it to be a concern.

If you are worried as you should be Search Low Level CO Detectors.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, Here's a bit more information and links to some more technical discussion. https://www.greenmoxie.com/your-natural-gas-stove-may-be-toxic/ I put an induction cooker in my place. Lawrence Berkeley National Labs has done a lot of research on this.

Yours, Larry

pecmsg

As we tighten the envelope of our homes the natural air exchanges are dropping rapidly.
Today’s homes require a complete air change every 4 - 6 hours to exhaust contaminated and maintain oxygen levels.

This is why I preach “Low Level” CO detectors.

EdTheHeaterMan

@Jamie Hall said
Do you really mean Carbon Dioxide? Which is basically harmless (well, maybe except for the climate... cue argument)? LOL

He also got it right with the amount!

Natural Gas is a hydrocarbon with 4 hydrogen atoms and 1 carbon atom per molecule. HC4 (where 4 is a smaller number at the bottom of the C). If you burn 1 million BTUs of natural gas you will create 117 pounds of Carbon Dioxide, assuming complete combustion. Depending on the amount of oxygen available for the combustion process (excess air), the percentage of CO2 will range from over 10% by volume to as low as 3% per volume compared to the total volume of gasses (including the nitrogen that goes along for a free ride and steels heat from the process.)

Since the combustion on a cooking stove, happens in the open at atmospheric pressure, the amount of oxygen available for combustion depends upon how well ventilated the room is, where the stove is located


Assuming there is adequate air for combustion and that the excess air is relatively high, the percentage is probably lower than 6%, more likely down near 4% by volume of total available air for combustion.

The constant will always be 117 lbs of CO2 for every 1 million BTUs of natural gas burned. The variable is the total amount of air in the sample. That is where your percentage is formulated from.

Incomplete Combustion is a different story.
If there is not enough oxygen in the combustion air, then some of the carbon atoms will only get 1 oxygen atom and form Carbon Monoxide (CO) or just carbon alone (C). We call that soot.

CO is measured in PPM (parts per million). One PPM is 0.00001% in comparison the CO2 measured in numbers greater than 1%

I hope this info was helpful. Look at this site for confirmation.
https://www.americangeosciences.org/critical-issues/faq/how-much-carbon-dioxide-produced-when-different-fuels-are-burned

and this is a chart for natural gas combustion efficiency
https://www.gwberkheimer.com/gwb/tg.nsf/0/00aec6c526b3aa0187257a5c00641463!OpenDocument&file=1&Click=

Steamhead

Larry Weingarten said:

Hi, Here's a bit more information and links to some more technical discussion. https://www.greenmoxie.com/your-natural-gas-stove-may-be-toxic/ I put an induction cooker in my place. Lawrence Berkeley National Labs has done a lot of research on this.

Yours, Larry

I've seen several such "studies". Did anyone actually test the stoves in question with a digital combustion analyzer? If not, they are suspect.

mattmia2

it says:
"Another study of preschool children in Helsinki found that those who lived in homes with gas stoves had carbon monoxide exposures that were double those of children who lived in homes with electric stoves."

but offers no evidence that exposure to those minuscule levels of co have caused any harm. as always, chemistry is about concentration. That article is a bunch of random facts without any evidence whatsoever linking any of those facts to any sort of harm.

Larry Weingarten

Hello, @Steamhead , I think we've had this discussion before but I wanted to follow up now with more detail. Here's an article from LBNL: https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2013/07/23/kitchens-can-produce-hazardous-levels-of-indoor-pollutants/ Brett Singer is the lead researcher studying what stoves do in homes. I met him years ago at the lab. I know they measure things with good tools, but have no idea if they tune stoves. I found his contact info: Brett C Singer, BCSinger@lbl.gov 510-486-4779 if you want to ask him directly.

My take on this is since very few heating techs carry proper testing equipment and likely even fewer stove installers do, it's going to be very hard to make testing happen. While we discuss this, children who live in homes with gas stoves are 42% more likely to develop asthma than kids who live with electric stoves. So, what's the best way (or ways) to solve the problem quickly? Just looking for solutions.

Yours, Larry

CLamb

Yes, I meant Carbon Dioxide. I'm trying to estimate how much cooking it would take for Carbon Dioxide to build up to a hazardous level. For long term exposure OSHA defines a hazardous level as 5,000ppm, the EU as 1,500ppm, and NIOSH as 1,000ppm. The number 1 cubic foot per thousand BTUs is good for my estimates. Thanks all.

Steamhead

@Larry Weingarten , I would venture to say that, at the very least, most or all of the regulars on here have and use digital analyzers. For myself, I don't run a call without one. We even have a spare so we're properly equipped when one of the front-line units is in for maintenance. Any proper heating or appliance tech would know, or should know, analyzers and the know-how to use them are not optional when working on combustion appliances.

I'm not going to call Brett Singer. Any proper researcher knows, or should know, that in order to produce meaningful results one must eliminate all variables. In this instance, the question of whether or not a stove is in proper tune has a direct bearing on the results. If you're interested in his reaction, go ahead and direct his attention to this thread. Better yet, have him create a user account and post his response himself.

ChrisJ

Since stoves come preassembled with a regulator I'm not sure why anyone needs an analyzer. They could just be required to be tuned properly before leaving the factory.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

Since stoves come preassembled with a regulator I'm not sure why anyone needs an analyzer. They could just be required to be tuned properly before leaving the factory.

Unfortunately, natural gas is not a uniform product in all areas of the USA. The BTU content per cubic foot and specific gravity can vary widely.

Back in the day, gas utilities that sold appliances could order them pre-tuned to the gas used in their areas. Obviously, that doesn't happen anymore (How do I know this? I've taken some of @Tim McElwain 's courses, where he tells how it was when he was coming up in the business- some of the best history lessons ever).

But even if a unit was properly tuned at the factory, stuff can happen between that moment and the time it's placed in service. I've seen, for example, burner tubes in packaged boilers that had been knocked slightly out of line, allowing the flame to impinge on something and cause high CO. And how did I find the high CO?

George "Firedragon" Lanthier, another educator I respect highly, writes that even if a problem shows up that was caused by something that originated at the factory, he would still fault the installer. Why? Because they didn't check it!

There is NO substitute for testing. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. If you don't test, you're guessing. And that's just not good enough.

Larry Weingarten

Hi @Steamhead , I've invited Brett Singer to come participate. Hopefully, something good will come of it.

Yours, Larry

ChrisJ

> @Steamhead said:
> (Quote)
> Unfortunately, natural gas is not a uniform product in all areas of the USA. The BTU content per cubic foot and specific gravity can vary widely.
>
> Back in the day, gas utilities that sold appliances could order them pre-tuned to the gas used in their areas. Obviously, that doesn't happen anymore (How do I know this? I've taken some of @Tim McElwain 's courses, where he tells how it was when he was coming up in the business- some of the best history lessons ever).
>
> But even if a unit was properly tuned at the factory, stuff can happen between that moment and the time it's placed in service. I've seen, for example, burner tubes in packaged boilers that had been knocked slightly out of line, allowing the flame to impinge on something and cause high CO. And how did I find the high CO?
>
> George "Firedragon" Lanthier, another educator I respect highly, writes that even if a problem shows up that was caused by something that originated at the factory, he would still fault the installer. Why? Because they didn't check it!
>
> There is NO substitute for testing. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. If you don't test, you're guessing. And that's just not good enough.

Right now I'd settle for proper outdoor vented exhaust hoods. That even seems to be asking for too much and yet even I feel it's necessary. You're not going to get all stoves to be setup using an avalyzer, you can't even get that with most boilers even oil fired.

The amount of recirculating exhaust fans in use is insane.

pecmsg

Remember were not talking about something that's running for extended periods like a furnace. (The holidays may be different but I know my Kitchen windows are cracked at those times)

An Hour 2 at best!

pecmsg

Steamhead said:

ChrisJ said:

Since stoves come preassembled with a regulator I'm not sure why anyone needs an analyzer. They could just be required to be tuned properly before leaving the factory.

Unfortunately, natural gas is not a uniform product in all areas of the USA. The BTU content per cubic foot and specific gravity can vary widely.

Back in the day, gas utilities that sold appliances could order them pre-tuned to the gas used in their areas. Obviously, that doesn't happen anymore (How do I know this? I've taken some of @Tim McElwain 's courses, where he tells how it was when he was coming up in the business- some of the best history lessons ever).

But even if a unit was properly tuned at the factory, stuff can happen between that moment and the time it's placed in service. I've seen, for example, burner tubes in packaged boilers that had been knocked slightly out of line, allowing the flame to impinge on something and cause high CO. And how did I find the high CO?

George "Firedragon" Lanthier, another educator I respect highly, writes that even if a problem shows up that was caused by something that originated at the factory, he would still fault the installer. Why? Because they didn't check it!

There is NO substitute for testing. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. If you don't test, you're guessing. And that's just not good enough.

I doubt this was tested at the factory in 1942

ChrisJ

> @pecmsg said:
> (Quote)
> I doubt this was tested at the factory in 1942
> (Image)

Of course not, but going forward..

Water heaters usually only run intermittently as well and yet people flip out if they're not vented properly. Yet a kitchen stove / oven which can run all day long doesn't require a vent.

Steamhead

pecmsg said:

Steamhead said:

ChrisJ said:

Since stoves come preassembled with a regulator I'm not sure why anyone needs an analyzer. They could just be required to be tuned properly before leaving the factory.

Unfortunately, natural gas is not a uniform product in all areas of the USA. The BTU content per cubic foot and specific gravity can vary widely.

Back in the day, gas utilities that sold appliances could order them pre-tuned to the gas used in their areas. Obviously, that doesn't happen anymore (How do I know this? I've taken some of @Tim McElwain 's courses, where he tells how it was when he was coming up in the business- some of the best history lessons ever).

But even if a unit was properly tuned at the factory, stuff can happen between that moment and the time it's placed in service. I've seen, for example, burner tubes in packaged boilers that had been knocked slightly out of line, allowing the flame to impinge on something and cause high CO. And how did I find the high CO?

George "Firedragon" Lanthier, another educator I respect highly, writes that even if a problem shows up that was caused by something that originated at the factory, he would still fault the installer. Why? Because they didn't check it!

There is NO substitute for testing. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. If you don't test, you're guessing. And that's just not good enough.

I doubt this was tested at the factory in 1942

But in 2020, it should be!

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

> @pecmsg said:

> (Quote)

> I doubt this was tested at the factory in 1942

> (Image)



Of course not, but going forward..



Water heaters usually only run intermittently as well and yet people flip out if they're not vented properly. Yet a kitchen stove / oven which can run all day long doesn't require a vent.

The other side of that is, water heaters turn on and off by themselves. Most times, stoves need humans to turn them on. Not saying venting them is a bad idea though.

mattmia2

Didn't some early gas ranges have vents? At least they are running on methane or propane now instead of town gas. I'm surprised they were still manufacturing ranges in 1942.

bburd

Most older domestic gas ranges I have seen that vented into chimneys had an integral gas fired space heater in one side, and that is the portion that was vented.

In homes originally built with coal fired kitchen ranges and central heating, the kitchen typically did not have a radiator or hot air register because the fire in the range kept the room warm.

The gas range-with-space-heater was developed for these homes. I believe they are no longer manufactured.

Many “triple decker” three-flat apartment buildings in New England, built around the turn of the 20th century with coal fired appliances, now have modern gas or electric ranges—and no heat in their kitchens.

SuperTech

> @CLamb said:
> Yes, I meant Carbon Dioxide. I'm trying to estimate how much cooking it would take for Carbon Dioxide to build up to a hazardous level. For long term exposure OSHA defines a hazardous level as 5,000ppm, the EU as 1,500ppm, and NIOSH as 1,000ppm. The number 1 cubic foot per thousand BTUs is good for my estimates. Thanks all.

Wow, it seems like everyone has gone slightly off topic with the discussion changing to CO and combustion testing. The OP is obviously talking about CO2, although I think its being confused with CO....I've never heard about dangerous exposure to CO2.

ChrisJ

SuperTech said:

> @CLamb said:

> Yes, I meant Carbon Dioxide. I'm trying to estimate how much cooking it would take for Carbon Dioxide to build up to a hazardous level. For long term exposure OSHA defines a hazardous level as 5,000ppm, the EU as 1,500ppm, and NIOSH as 1,000ppm. The number 1 cubic foot per thousand BTUs is good for my estimates. Thanks all.



Wow, it seems like everyone has gone slightly off topic with the discussion changing to CO and combustion testing. The OP is obviously talking about CO2, although I think its being confused with CO....I've never heard about dangerous exposure to CO2.

I'd think it's in the same boat as if you are trapped in a space and run out of air to breath.

pecmsg

Beer Fermenters give off CO2. Stove top's, What are you cooking?

ethicalpaul

Steamhead said:

The other side of that is, water heaters turn on and off by themselves. Most times, stoves need humans to turn them on. Not saying venting them is a bad idea though.

The other side of that is stoves also need humans to turn them off--something I am reminded of every time my wife forgets to!

EdTheHeaterMan

pecmsg said:

Beer Fermenters give off CO2. Stove top's, What are you cooking?

Humans give off methane after drinking Beer

College students then ignite that methane and end up with a sore end

Sorry ... that is off topic

Steamhead

EdTheHeaterMan said:

pecmsg said:

Beer Fermenters give off CO2. Stove top's, What are you cooking?

Humans give off methane after drinking Beer

College students then ignite that methane and end up with a sore end

Sorry ... that is off topic

SuperTech

> @EdTheHeaterMan said:
> (Quote)
> Humans give off methane after drinking Beer
>
> College students then ignite that methane and end up with a sore end
>
> Sorry ... that is off topic

Off topic but I like where we are going with this. 😁

EdTheHeaterMan

> @pecmsg said:
> (Quote)
> I doubt this was tested at the factory in 1942
> (Image)

Is that the kitchen display at Disney World’s Carousel of progress ?

If not... somebody needs a go fund me page for a new kitchen. What kind of car do you drive?

ChrisJ

EdTheHeaterMan said:

> @pecmsg said:

> (Quote)

> I doubt this was tested at the factory in 1942

> (Image)



Is that the kitchen display at Disney World’s Carousel of progress ?



If not... somebody needs a go fund me page for a new kitchen. What kind of car do you drive?

The car you posted is certainly different than a modern one.
But in what way is the stove pecmsg different from a modern gas range?

mattmia2

Burners are usually more powerful and the oven is better insulated and regulated, at least on a good modern range. Oh, and the burners light themselves.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

Burners are usually more powerful and the oven is better insulated and regulated, at least on a good modern range. Oh, and the burners light themselves.

Yeah........until the stove is 5-10 years old, then they often don't work right.

mattmia2

Just don't buy brands that are using bargain basement switches on the gas valves.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

Just don't buy brands that are using bargain basement switches on the gas valves.

In my case, $1200 Kitchenaid which is really a Whirlpool.
Good luck my friend. Whirlpool makes most of them and I bet it's the same switch.

pecmsg

> @EdTheHeaterMan said:
> > @pecmsg said:
> > (Quote)
> > I doubt this was tested at the factory in 1942
> > (Image)
>
> Is that the kitchen display at Disney World’s Carousel of progress ?
>
> If not... somebody needs a go fund me page for a new kitchen. What kind of car do you drive?
>
>
That’s our kitchen on the East End of Long Island. Paid $1000 for that stove. It will outlast anything you buy today. Yes you need a match to light the oven and the broiler but the pilots still lights to three burners in the warmer

DavidinKenai

Back to the OP's question: how much CO2 does a home stove give off? My answer: 10 cubic feet (283 liters) per hour.

My calculations: Most US gas stoves are 4 burners and an oven. The four burners are often something like 8,000, 12,000, another 12,000 and a 20,000-BTU/hour burner. The oven burner cycles on and off once the set temperature is reached. I'll do calculations for 10,000 BTU/hour burner - that's a small to medium burner near full or a larger burner turned down.

If you run it for an hour, you release 10,000 BTU. That, near enough, is the gross heat of combustion of 10 cubic feet of natural gas. Modeling NG as methane (it's not all methane, but is mostly methane), each cubic foot of methane produces one cubic foot of CO2 - the one carbon atom in methane ends up as the one carbon atom in CO2.

Ta, dah! The answer: 10 cubic feet of CO2 are produced each hour you run a typical stove-top burner. Twice that if you run two burners.

Is that bad? Worst case might be someone trying to heat their home with their stove top. If so, they might be running all 4 burners. So 40 cubic feet of CO2 per hour. And if their kitchen was small (8 x 15 x 8' high? = 960 cubic feet) and closed off from the rest of the house? Closed off like plastic sheeting taped over all the door frames? Then 40 / 960 = 4% CO2 in the air. That's not good. That's about what you exhale out with each breath. You'd feel a strong need to breath more. Your body would be retaining bicarb in the kidneys to balance out the carbonic acid.

If you were soundly asleep or so drunk/stoned as to be incapacitated, I guess it would just get worse from there. If had your wits about you, though, you'd claw your way out of there.

I'd be more worried about CO exposure than CO2 exposure because running those burners in 4% CO2 and 15% O2 would give very poor combustion of the methane and have abnormally high levels of CO generated.

In practice, someone heating their house with (any) unvented combustion device is going to reach a balance between CO2 released and air changes in the house. A tight house will reach a higher level of CO2 than a leaky house will.

Also, from long observation, grandma can have 3 or 4 burners plus the oven going for several hours when preparing Thanksgiving dinner and people aren't dying from that. Yeah, it's either an old leaky house or if not, someone will surely have cracked a window because of the heat and humidity. Or be running the range exhaust hood fan.

EdTheHeaterMan

@pecmsg "That’s our kitchen on the East End of Long Island. Paid $1000 for that stove. It will outlast anything you buy today. Yes you need a match to light the oven and the broiler but the pilots still lights to three burners in the warmer"

Sorry, not meaning to insult. Just a light-hearted dig. BTW, I really like the look. I'm kinda into the old stuff myself.

ChrisJ

> @EdTheHeaterMan said:
> @pecmsg "That’s our kitchen on the East End of Long Island. Paid $1000 for that stove. It will outlast anything you buy today. Yes you need a match to light the oven and the broiler but the pilots still lights to three burners in the warmer"
>
> Sorry, not meaning to insult. Just a light-hearted dig. BTW, I really like the look. I'm kinda into the old stuff myself.

I like the old stoves, but really old refrigerators is where it's at.