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Uponor valves

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ChrisJ
ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,921
Does anyone know what the story is between Uponor's commercial ball valves and their normal ball valves?

For example the two styles shown here, though one is 1/2" and the other 3/4".

Are the commercial ones better?
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,480
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    The bottom one looks like a Dahl mini ball valve., a Canadian brand. Those are machined from bar stock. The upper looks like a typical forged brass valve also a relabeled brand I suspect.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ChrisJ
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    Full-port vs. not-full-port?
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
    GroundUp
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    Also, the commercial ball valves' spec sheet says,
    Note: These valves are compatible with applications using a propylene glycol mixture up to a maximum of 50% propylene glycol.

    The other ones say,
    Note: These valves are not compatible with applications using glycol.

    The commercial valves also meet NSF-359, if it matters.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
    BillyOChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,921
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    I'm surprised no one on here has experience with these?

    I thought for sure a few would comment on experiences etc.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    We're waiting for you! Take one for the team! :D
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,921
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    We're waiting for you! Take one for the team! :D

    I bought a bunch of the "Commercial" ones and my parents have the other ones since 2006.

    I don't think there's an issue, just curious what the pros have seen in the real world.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,480
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    ChrisJ said:

    I'm surprised no one on here has experience with these?

    I thought for sure a few would comment on experiences etc.

    What type of experience? Usually takes years to find out the valve no longer seal, or leaks after turned on and off after a period of time.

    I look for the quality and size of forging, pressure and other listings, size of stem, a packing nut around the stem, country of origin :)

    Bad fluid quality can destroy or stick most any valve.

    I have used that Dahl valves for years, a nice quality machined valve, no adjustable packing, reduced port ball. Lifetime warranty.
    They are nice on copper radiant manifolds. The small size and handle allows you to close center them on a manifold. I like their garden hose valves, I have one on all my shop hoses.



    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,921
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    hot_rod said:

    ChrisJ said:

    I'm surprised no one on here has experience with these?

    I thought for sure a few would comment on experiences etc.

    What type of experience? Usually takes years to find out the valve no longer seal, or leaks after turned on and off after a period of time.

    I look for the quality and size of forging, pressure and other listings, size of stem, a packing nut around the stem, country of origin :)

    Bad fluid quality can destroy or stick most any valve.

    I have used that Dahl valves for years, a nice quality machined valve, no adjustable packing, reduced port ball. Lifetime warranty.
    They are nice on copper radiant manifolds. The small size and handle allows you to close center them on a manifold. I like their garden hose valves, I have one on all my shop hoses.



    Any kind of experience I suppose. Obviously I already bought what I bought, it's more of a curiosity thing.

    You know, the ol "I prefer this because bla bla bla".

    Are you sure the Uponor ones actually are Dahl? The handles look totally different.


    Is the lack of an adjustable packing considered a benefit? I always looked at it as a bad thing.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    ChrisJ said:

    I bought a bunch of the "Commercial" ones and my parents have the other ones since 2006.

    I'd be curious to know if those "other ones" really aren't full-port. I didn't see anything in the specs about the port size.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,480
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    It may not be a Dahl, looks like a knock-off based on the shape of the body?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,297
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    @ChrisJ We've used both in the past and currently use the Webstone expansion valves. The down side of Dahl version ones that @hot_rod as mention is there is no valve stem packing but to tighten which we’ve seen leaks accruing and plus the valve handles are small and tend to be hard to turn off not exercised.
    E-Travis Mechanical LLC
    Etravismechanical@gmail.com
    201-887-8856
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,921
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    I don't know if these are "rebranded"

    Thoughts?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,840
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    I like Apollo. Not the cheapest but looking way back I think they were one of the first ball valves I remember seeing. There not 100% trouble free but they hod up pretty well
    Hap_HazzardBillyO
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,480
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    ChrisJ said:

    I don't know if these are "rebranded"



    Thoughts?

    As far as I know Uponor does not have a brass manufacturing facility. So I' d bet it is a rebrand. In the past manifolds, actuators, valves etc have been rebranded products. Maybe that has changed?

    That 'e" with the slash below may be a brand logo, I'll ask my Italian team tomorrow, they can usually identify a product like that.

    Italian manufacturers tend to keep brass manufactured components high quality. They have no interest in competing with knock off, down engineered products from PRC.

    Listings like FM, CSA, UL, UPC, ANSI can help determine if the valve has been tested to some tough standards.

    The 250 CWP (cold working pressure) aka MWP (maximum working pressure) is a cold working pressure up to 100°F.

    That 250 seems low a Class 150 valve for example is 275 CWP, Class 2500 is a 6000 CWP
    250 would seem to be be adequate for low pressure hydronics.

    WOG (water oil, gas) at ambient temperature. The oil and gas rating is usually a bit more engineered valve.

    WSP is working steam rating

    Pretty much all the major US ball valve manufacturers offer domestic and a less expensive imports.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,921
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    More detail @hot_rod
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,480
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    The country of origin is usually required on a valve, either stamped or printed, sometimes under side of the metal handle. I thought it had to be permanent.

    They show 200 psi at 200F while the 250CWP psi is at 100° max temperature. I don't see any other listings unless the submittal sheet shows more.

    Every listing on a valve adds $$ to the cost for a manufacturer, sometimes 3rd party testing. I've never know an inspector to ask for valve listings on hydronic projects.
    Fire protection, commercial work is usually more stringent, and a UL or FM mark may be required.

    I think the pw is a potable water approved valve, although California may require a Prop 65 warning on the package or product. We had to un-pack and relabel every product with Prop 65 to be legal in CA. $2500.00 per violation per day penalty, not worth the risk.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,921
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    > @hot_rod said:
    > The country of origin is usually required on a valve, either stamped or printed, sometimes under side of the metal handle. I thought it had to be permanent.
    >
    > They show 200 psi at 200F while the 250CWP psi is at 100° max temperature. I don't see any other listings unless the submittal sheet shows more.
    >
    > Every listing on a valve adds $$ to the cost for a manufacturer, sometimes 3rd party testing. I've never know an inspector to ask for valve listings on hydronic projects.
    > Fire protection, commercial work is usually more stringent, and a UL or FM mark may be required.
    >
    > I think the pw is a potable water approved valve, although California may require a Prop 65 warning on the package or product. We had to un-pack and relabel every product with Prop 65 to be legal in CA. $2500.00 per violation per day penalty, not worth the risk.

    The second set of pics is of a different valve I bought a few months ago. I just happened to pull that one out. The way I have stuff packed for right now makes it a pain to go through.

    I assume they're the same, but you never know. They are the same size, brand etc but bought a few months apart.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,921
    Options
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • BillyO
    BillyO Member Posts: 277
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    Wolverine brass valves first class