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Need Advise-Confirmation for Underfloor (Between Joist) Radiant Installation -Northern NJ-Zone 5

2

Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,831
    A strap wrench works nicely, grabs without marking or egg shapping the tube. As close to the adapter as possible.
    Teflon tape and some teflon paste for good seal the first time.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • BillyO
    BillyO Member Posts: 274
    why dont you extend a brass nipple out past tank and adapt from there. putting wrench on copper not such a great move.
    STEVEusaPA
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 580
    teflon tape and dope helps lubricate as well as seal the threads so they will turn in easier with less force. Be careful with a pipe wrench on the copper. Take care on that sweat joint. Make sure it is really good.
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    BillyO said:

    why dont you extend a brass nipple out past tank and adapt from there. putting wrench on copper not such a great move.

    I would like to...but could not find anywhere in the supply house...
    I tried to do online purchases.
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,831
    hcpatel78 said:
    why dont you extend a brass nipple out past tank and adapt from there. putting wrench on copper not such a great move.
    I would like to...but could not find anywhere in the supply house... I tried to do online purchases.
    You can but swag nipples, steel, brass, stainless. A 3/4 X 1-1/4 for example. The are fairly expensive, probably 30- 40 bucks in brass
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited September 2020
    As I am reading more about pumping away and after attending webinar presented by "BOB" I am little confused about my understanding about pumping away. Is this my piping looks OK with Pumping away concept?
    Thank you in advance....

    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,831
    That is fine.
    The PONPC, pumping away gets a bit cloudier with a buffer tank or hydraulic separator. The boiler circ is obviously pumping away, easy to see. The system circulator is also, as the buffer tank becomes an extension of the PONPC via it's big wide open, low pressure drop design.

    If anything I would move the exp tank to that large diameter piping at the tank, elimination the small pressure drop in the piping between it and the tank, where you show it.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    As I am working in limited space in mechanical room....can I install my expansion tank below air separator(Spirovent Jr) in above diagram?
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,831
    physically it can be mounted anywhere in the room, but it must connect where you show it to develop the correct PONPC 
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    Got it...I will work out that. Also was following one of your post somewhere on forum. It's shows you install in one of the port on buffer tank. I have electric hot water tank (30 Gallon) so can I remove existing T & P valve from tank and install Autofeeder and expansion tank there?
    1.jpg 994.2K
    2.jpg 1.5M
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited November 2020
    Hello All....Just wanted to share some pictures of my install. Also would like to request here to the Professionals to take a look and advise me if anything wrong in my set up.

    *Boiler Feed water line will be hooked up with back flow preventer on the Boiler feeder port.
    *Hot water inlet and return will be connected to vertical port at the buffer connection from the manifold side.
    * The expansion tank will be connected to the Brass TEE with the 1/2" ball valve in between (Waiting for parts)
    * The Taco SR501 relay will be connected to the Grundfos Alpha II 15-58 Circulator and TEKMAR 519 thermostat will be connected with Floor Sensor.
    * The Outdoor Reset(ODR) sensor will be connected to the boiler that will control the SWT.
    * The manifold and the 4 loops are already successfully pressure tested at 50PSI for 24 hours with air.

    Thank you very much in advance for all your support and time.
    Hiren
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,831
    Assuming there is a circulator inside the Navian? The exp tank and fill can connect to the bottom of the Spirovent, or into any tapping on the tank
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    hcpatel78
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited November 2020
    Yes...there is a boiler circulator inbuilt.I am using Noritz CB199DV combi boiler. I have removed T&P valve of buffer tank(lowboy30 Gal electric heater) and hookup expansion tank there. You can see long standing copper pipe at left side.
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited November 2020

    I have installed spring loaded check valve on return line from buffer tank to boiler before dirt separator. I hope it won't affect any flow pattern in TWO PIPE design with buffer.
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited November 2020
    Few interesting things found out about Caleffi inverted S1 manifold and came across couple of problem.

    (1) It is very hard to install tubing in bottom return manifold at last port near end (first port near air purge and drain valve) as the metal strap is interfering with tubing. As a mechanical design engineer I checked all possibility of that component location and it purely looks like is design issue, Needs to be corrected at Caleffi Engineering Design department.

    (2) The top purge valve outlet (supply Manifold purge valve) can't accept standard washing machine hose as it interferes with again air purge at bottom side(Please see Picture).
    I might be working first time in my life with this Caleffi S1 Manifold but over here lots of people might already tackle with this kind of challenges.

    I thought to bring these topic to discussion led with better solution in future.
    May be @hot_rod (Bob) know these already...

    Thank you in advance as always i learnt so many things from the people from this forum and discussion,
    Hiren








    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,831
    Yes I am aware of the bracket interference. The goal was tom keep a slim profile so the manifold will fit into a 2X4 wall cavity, staggered tuben layout helps also.

    The valve work around is an angle end type of hose, shown here.

    Typically it is a one time function to purge a manifold, unless you plan on draining and refilling.

    Most installers include purge valves at the mechanical room to do the purging, and ignore the manifold valves. Usually mechanical rooms have floor drains so it facilitates a good power purge.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    Aaah that angled hose is the trick!... Yes I had fill and purge valve in the mechanical room which helped during purging. But at one point i wanted to use that outlet to purge circuit...but we figured that out.
    for the interference of the tube....i offset both manifold body at extreme ends.....then after little struggling I was able to put on compression sleeve and nut.

    Thank you,
    Hiren
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,831
    hcpatel78 said:

    Aaah that angled hose is the trick!... Yes I had fill and purge valve in the mechanical room which helped during purging. But at one point i wanted to use that outlet to purge circuit...but we figured that out.
    for the interference of the tube....i offset both manifold body at extreme ends.....then after little struggling I was able to put on compression sleeve and nut.
    Sorry about the install hassle, you ended up with a very nice, well planned install. It should provides years of comfort.

    Thank you,
    Hiren

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited November 2020
    @hot_rod ....You shouldn't say sorry....I am so grateful and thankful to you and this forum and all people who contributes their intelligence, experience, time and effort to guide me and add some more skill and confidence in me.
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited November 2020
    Update : 11-24-2020
    Just fired up my system.....
    * I kept SWT at 110 and boiler set up to turn on and off in =/- 10 degree range(120 off & 100 on) for buffer. Floor started to warm up between 70 to 72.
    *The delta T is around 10 degree F with return water temp at return manifold. I have system flow readout between 3 to 4 GPM.
    *I did not set up ODR as I wanted to reduce short cycling of the Boiler.
    *Grundfos Alpha II 15-58 set up at DELTA P mode at speed III. It runs nice and quite pulling 35 watt power when it runs.
    Please see attahced complete system pictures....

    Anything else if I overlook then please let me know.

    Thank you all,

    Happy Thanksgiving & Happy Holidays,
    Hiren






    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,217
    You’ll need change the 3”x2” bushings on the flue and air intake to reducer couplings with at least 3”x6” of pipe right off of the boiler.

  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    @EzzyT ..thank you...I will change it. Can I ask you why?..just wanted to understand....
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,217
    It’s clearly stated in the manual for one reason and plus the bushings in that orientation will have an affect on combustion since it’s not as smoothly as a transition as a reducing coupling. 
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    @EzzyT
    Got it thanks.
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited December 2020
    Hi
    I Install TEKMAR 519 with floor sensor in my radiant system. Floor sensor is installed at basement ceiling touching the sensor and 2" foam behind the sensor according to TEKMAR manual. I have set Noritz combi boiler CB199DV at fixed supply water temperature at 110 F with turnoff 120F and turn on at 95f setting.
    I have TACO SR 501-4 Relay Control set up which is turning on the BOILER(via TT connection) and end switch to the Grundfos circulator.

    Upon heat call from Thermostat Taco RELAY send signal to Circulator and BOILER to fire up.

    I did not connected ODR to control the SWT for my buffer.
    There is no aqua state install either at buffer.

    TEKMAR's room sensor is off. Now in this set up TEKMAR 519 is calling for heat even the my set temperature is reading. Means let's say I have set 74 and the floor is at 74 , stat readout 74...still thermostat calls for heat . and after 5 to 10 minutes its satisfy with heat and circulator and boiler shuts off.


    Now my question is why thermostat is keep calling heat even the floor temperature is same as set temperature?
    it should wait until it drop 1 or 1.5 degree then set temperature then call for heat.

    Because of this my boiler is short cycling even I have buffer setup. Do there any other trick to reduce short cycling of heat call from thermostat? or I do I have wrong set up?

    Any other trick to let boiler run alone until set temperature achieve and should not follow my stat calling.?

    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • Dennis
    Dennis Member Posts: 101
    One hope in extending the usefulness of the Noritz would be in adding a hot water coil to the existing gas furnace and taking its heat exchanger off line as a source of heat. Additionally use the combi section of the boiler also.

    I know you got a good deal on this boiler, this would in fact allow you to resell the boiler and possibly breakeven.

    I would suggest a better boiler for your application. The Crown or one of its clones US boiler I believe is one. Additionally the purchase of a Sage Controller would greatly increase the operating life of the boiler. The Sage controller would allow selection of upto 4 zones dialed in by the btu output required the temperature control to the floor could then controlled by mixing or injection.

    If the load calculation of 33k btu is correct, you might want to add a radiator or some tubing to a wall, or possibly a fan coil with ducting.
    Just do it, right.
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    Thank you Dennis
    I got your point. But I am still looking for feedback on my control question.
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 3,351
    edited November 2020
    It’s clearly stated in the manual for one reason and plus the bushings in that orientation will have an affect on combustion since it’s not as smoothly as a transition as a reducing coupling.

    It looks like they want you to use a bushing, no?


    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 3,351
    edited November 2020
    The wiring to your boiler from the Taco SR501 should be from terminals 5 and 6 (N/O) as shown in the wiring diagram. Otherwise, the transformer in the boiler and the transformer in the SR501 will battle each other. Terminals 5 and 6 are dry contacts, i.e. no voltage.
    About your short cycling, you will need an aquastat in the tank.

    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,831
    edited November 2020
    You want a temperature control on the buffer tank, connected to TT on the boiler. Basically the boiler is controlled by the tank, this control maintains tank temperature.
    Thermostats to relay, relay fires circulator.
    I like these electronic controls, lots of adjustability and readout shows tank temperature.
    A number of wiring schematics in the back of Idronic 17

    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_17_na.pdf
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited November 2020

    The wiring to your boiler from the Taco SR501 should be from terminals 5 and 6 (N/O) as shown in the wiring diagram. Otherwise, the transformer in the boiler and the transformer in the SR501 will battle each other. Terminals 5 and 6 are dry contacts, i.e. no voltage.
    About your short cycling, you will need an aquastat in the tank.

    Alan,
    Thank you for the diagram. My mistake I drew wrong diagram. I have the boiler TT connected to the #6 & #5 port. Now the question is if I have aquastat or any other electronic control installed then should my BOILER TT will connect to aquastat or HOT-rod's suggested temp. control?

    I have also ODR sensor supplied with the boiler. Should I activate and connect the ODR and let boiler run in the predefine range of 80-120 f? That's the way boiler will run longer( maximum duration) and will not short cycle based on my THERMOSTAT & RELAY call because the TT from Taco relay will be not connected to boiler anymore.

    Thank you,
    Hiren
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • ........should my BOILER TT will connect to aquastat or HOT-rod's suggested temp. control?
    Yes, HR is correct.

    Should I activate and connect the ODR and let boiler run in the predefine range of 80-120 f?
    Yes, give it a go. You might need to increase the settings if it's not getting warm enough, but it's a good place to start.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    Thank you Alan. I will install ODR and will post my experience.
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited December 2020
    Hi, I have installed ODR few days ago and now system is running based on ODR. Boiler end switch TT still connected to the TACO SR 501 relay as per Noritz Tech. Support advice.

    I just noticed that radiant circulator is running longer per hour than before it used to run on fixed set boiler SWT at (110 F). Boiler flame runtime is more than 10 minutes whenever it's fires up. The radiant circulator keep getting hot water from the buffer tank.

    Grudfos Alpha II runs on lowest Delta P setting with 2GPM speed and energy consumption is 12-to 13 watts/ hour. That will use 11 KWH energy consumption per moth if it will run 24/7. Means may be I will get operating cost around $1.65 per month (11kwhx$0.15/KWH) for circulator. What an amazing device!

    Hope these data reveal that whether my system is running efficient or not?

    Will be interesting to have some PRO comments on this.
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 580
    More circulator run time and less 'short cycling' on boiler is a good sign. It is nice when you can use these devices to their full potential. Your system is running more efficiently. Enjoy!
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    @psb75 Thank You!
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    edited December 2020
    Just curious..What is recommended frequency and time to flush dirt and sediments form the DIRT SEPERATOR?
    and ahow to perform that?
    Thank you,
    hiren
    .
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 580
    It depends on how much dirt your system produces. After flushing a few times (once a month) you will get a feel for it. Normally a unit like that should have shut off valves on each side of it. Procedure: shut off valves, then flush unit. But without those valves you can still flush your unit but just do a very quick opening of the bottom valve. Catch and see how much 'dirt' you get. Twice a year--may be enough.
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 580
    I just noticed that you DO have a valve on each side of your dirt separator--red and yellow! Use them when flushing it.
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 150
    psb75 said:

    It depends on how much dirt your system produces. After flushing a few times (once a month) you will get a feel for it. Normally a unit like that should have shut off valves on each side of it. Procedure: shut off valves, then flush unit. But without those valves you can still flush your unit but just do a very quick opening of the bottom valve. Catch and see how much 'dirt' you get. Twice a year--may be enough.

    @psb75
    Thank you. I will do that .
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel