Beckett AF2 with R7284U primary

djc11369

Hi all, new to this forum and would appreciate any help as I'm stumped, wiring isn't my thing.

I have a Trianco (yes, it's garbage) direct vent boiler with an Beckett AF2 that was utilizing a R7184U primary. I was having intermittent lockout issues so decided to employ my spare R7284U I had on hand for at least some troubleshooting info if/when it happens again. The R7184U was wired with the igniter and motor together in lieu of using the igniter wire available.

As I'd like to take advantage of the turning off spark during run I broke out the igniter wire and attached to the appropriate igniter wire of the R7284U. The boiler went through the valve on delay fine, started ignition trial, at which time I verified there was flame through the glass, and then when it got to the end of ignition trial it locked out. Error code said no ignition which baffles me. After reprogramming the spark during run from no to yes there was no change. I ended up changing the wiring back to the igniter and motor together to get it going since it's another cold spell here in upstate NY.

I've included some pictures of the R7184 wiring below if it's useful. If I excluded anything useful please let me know.

SuperTech

It looks like you have the solenoid valve (purple wire) tied in with the motor in your pictures? Double check your wiring. No burner components should be wired together on the R7284U. If for some reason you no longer have a solenoid valve on the AFII make sure you don't program the R7284 for any pre purge or post purge. Spark on delay is ok if you do have a solenoid. Of course leave spark during run off.

Why is nothing connected to the blue igniter wire on the pictures?

STEVEusaPA

Seems to me if you tried 2 different primary controls, with 2 different wiring configurations, and you still have lockouts, it's not the primary.
Time to dig a little deeper.
First I'd get the ohms reading as soon as it fires, then go thru all the other usual troubleshooting.
I think either you have a bad cad cell and/or wire (or misalignment), or a bad flame.
All check able with the proper tools and knowledge.

djc11369

SuperTech said:

It looks like you have the solenoid valve (purple wire) tied in with the motor in your pictures?


Why is nothing connected to the blue igniter wire on the pictures?

Hi SuperTech, the valve wire (primary purple) is connected with the valve (orange wire). The motor and igniter (black wires) are connected to the motor terminal wire (primary orange). I'm not sure why the blue igniter was never connected. These photo's are of the wiring of the 7184 that's been in use for maybe decade? Not sure of exact time but it's been awhile. What I did when I installed the 7284 was take the igniter black wire and connect it to the blue wire for the 7284 but my issue is as described, lockout after ignition trial even though there is flame.

djc11369

STEVEusaPA said:

Seems to me if you tried 2 different primary controls, with 2 different wiring configurations, and you still have lockouts, it's not the primary.
Time to dig a little deeper.
First I'd get the ohms reading as soon as it fires, then go thru all the other usual troubleshooting.
I think either you have a bad cad cell and/or wire (or misalignment), or a bad flame.
All check able with the proper tools and knowledge.

Hi Steve, the 7184 has been in use for probably a decade and this is how it has been wired. Only within the past two weeks have I been getting random lockouts. As I said in my opening post this same wiring works with the 7284 but it doesn't provide turning off spark during run. If I break out the igniter wire and connect to the igniter wire of the 7284 then I'm running into the lockout issue even though there's flame during trial.

STEVEusaPA

Yeah...so troubleshoot the primary so you can rule it out, then do the stuff I said in my first post.

SuperTech

I pulled up a wiring diagram online for the AFII with the R7184. It certainly doesn't match what you show in your pictures. I'm not insisting that it's the cause of your problem, but I would check it out. Just because something functions doesn't necessarily mean that it's functioning as the manufacturer intended.
I've never seen a solenoid valve use an orange wire.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Sounds to me like the burner will not stay lit unless the ignition is on. Modern burners are able to run without the ignition on

djc11369

STEVEusaPA said:

Yeah...so troubleshoot the primary so you can rule it out, then do the stuff I said in my first post.

Maybe I should preface this by I'm not a boiler tech. I'm doing this myself as my experiences with techs in this area are hit or miss, meaning one time you will get someone that's knowledgeable and the next you'll get a newbie that I seem to know more than he which is scary. The latter seems more prevalent. I must admit I like to do things myself anyway.

How do you propose I troubleshoot the primary? As far as cad cell, if that were the problem would it also not be an issue with the current wiring? Meaning it wouldn't detect flame and lockout?

What is the procedure for getting the cad cell at fire? I would short the cad terminals together on the primary and use an ohm meter on the terminals of the cad wires? What value range would be normal? I've read 300-1,000 but maybe that's running and when it initially fires is different? The primary says the average value is ~800 during cycle each time I"ve checked.

djc11369

SuperTech said:

I pulled up a wiring diagram online for the AFII with the R7184. It certainly doesn't match what you show in your pictures. I'm not insisting that it's the cause of your problem, but I would check it out. Just because something functions doesn't necessarily mean that it's functioning as the manufacturer intended.

I've never seen a solenoid valve use an orange wire.

Thanks, I will double check the orange wire but I think it is correct. It's the only other wire coming the direction of the valve besides the white neutral and the two black transformer wires. Can you elaborate on what you see that doesn't match for wiring? I have the R7184 Honeywell instructions and does appear correct to me for intermittent ignition wiring but it's not specific to an AF2. Do you have another reference that you can point me to that I can download to view? I understand what you mean about it's not necessarily right just because it works.

djc11369

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Sounds to me like the burner will not stay lit unless the ignition is on. Modern burners are able to run without the ignition on

Are you saying older burners are unable to take advantage of this feature? The burner is 22 years old, if true I'm curious what the difference is.

STEVEusaPA

This bottom line is you’re going to need a competent tech to troubleshoot, maintain (annual service), and set up your burner with combustion instruments. It’s the only proper way.
A check out of your primary control for proper operation is simple but extremely important. It’s the 'primary' safety device for your burner.
I unfortunately don’t feel comfortable explaining the process for a few reasons:
1. It involves modifying the safety control to test. If done improperly could lead to disaster. And if not returned to its proper operating condition-also disaster.
2. Although you may be able to do it, anyone reading this post may also try to fix their burner on their own.
3. If the control checks out fine, you still haven’t solved the problem, which you will then need a competent tech anyway.

djc11369

STEVEusaPA said:

This bottom line is you’re going to need a competent tech to troubleshoot, maintain (annual service), and set up your burner with combustion instruments. It’s the only proper way.

Are you saying I'm incompetent? No worries, I'll figure it out eventually and if I somehow can't I'll go that route. The problems are:

1. competent tech: hard to find in this area, it's not city life here so only a few companies and I don't think they're trained all that well.
2. combustion instruments: I know they have them but you have to question them when they attempt to leave after looking at the flame through the glass and saying it looks good. This isn't a joke, the last tech I had here stood across the room while saying it sounds good.

I've cleaned it many times, changed the nozzle and filters, set the electrodes. When the boiler was first installed I went through a few years of needing to have someone come out and clean it every few months. No one could figure out what was wrong with it. Eventually I started doing it myself because it was getting expensive. Eventually the transformer died and that scenario went away so I'm sure it was the problem all along except no one could figure it out.

STEVEusaPA

Of course I’m not saying you’re incompetent.
Where are you located? There may be someone here on The Wall who is nearby and can help.
It’s unfortunate there is no one in your area able to solve your issue.

Steamhead

@djc11369 , where are you located?

SuperTech

@EBEBRATT-Ed The AFII does come with interrupted ignition. Most of the R7184 primary controls are interrupted ignition or have the ability to to be set for intermittent or interrupted ignition.

djc11369

This may be a bit premature, I'm knocking on wood here, but the last two days since I've installed the new controller my random lockouts have stopped and it was triggering once or twice a day. I'm thinking the old controller was on it's way out, can't complain for how long it lasted. So assuming it stays that way I'm going to consider the case closed.

After thinking it about more, turning off the spark during the run isn't really that important. Sure it may make the transformer and electrodes last longer and save a bit on electricity but I've averaged 9 years on the last two transformers and changed the electrodes maybe three or four times in the past 22 years. I just changed the transformer on Dec. 25th, yes that's right, it failed on a major holiday so I'm glad I had a spare on hand. I've got another waiting in the wings for this one to fail. My electric bill averages around $60 for the winter months so that's not an issue either. So in all likelihood the transformer(s) will outlive the boiler, or being 50 now maybe even me. If I have to replace electrodes at $20 every few years then so be it.

Anyway, thanks for the help guys. If the problem comes back I'll inquire again. Just because I'm curious I will check that valve wire color SuperTech and post back my findings later.

HVACNUT

I can remember doing upgrades from a stack primary with interrupted ignition to a cad cell primary with intermittent ignition. Customer complaints? My TV gets lines on the screen when the burner comes on. VHF. Ah, memories.

SuperTech

You should definitely go with interrupted ignition if you are using an electronic igniter. In my experience they don't last long with intermittent ignition. Even the ones that are rated for constant duty. With interrupted ignition you use less power and the ignition components are much less prone to failure due to wear and tear. I recommend conversion whenever possible.
No need for constant spark on modern oil burners. It's like holding a lighter up to a candle that's already lit.
Out of curiosity, what are your cad cell resistance readings during operation @djc11369 ?

djc11369

It's not an electronic igniter, it's the old school variety and the last couple have lasted probably 9 years each hooked up the same way. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Allanson-2741-658-Ignition-Transformer-for-Beckett-AF-II-Burner

The primary says the average value is ~800 ohms during cycle each time I"ve checked.

Steamhead

Still, you're much better off with interrupted ignition. I think the only reason burner and control companies got away from it was because interrupted ignition controls were a bit more expensive, and they were trying to compete on price.

It doesn't take much effort to make the wiring change.

Alan Welch

If the burner won't run without the ignition transformer on all the time it is running, I suspect way too much excess air . What are the combustion readings ?

djc11369

Steamhead said:

It doesn't take much effort to make the wiring change.

I agree, perhaps I'll do it at a later time. I believe it was wired correctly, move igniter wire to igniter terminal, pretty easy. It's trying to figure out why it's not working correctly after that's the effort. It fires during ignition trial, it's as if the cad cell doesn't see it. It obviously sees it when the igniter wire is connected to the motor wire. Maybe the controller has an issue, wouldn't be the first time something new out of box doesn't work the way it's supposed to. How you troubleshoot that, aside from replacing with another, I don't know.

djc11369

Alan Welch said:

If the burner won't run without the ignition transformer on all the time it is running, I suspect way too much excess air . What are the combustion readings ?

Is the ignition on all the time during ignition trial? It fires then, it's when it gets to the end of trial that it locks out as if it didn't see a flame at all during trial.

djc11369

One question I do have on the controller, it has 4 terminals all marked L2 (neutral). I assumed they are all connected together, the instructions don't state one way or another. I guess I could have done a continuity check but didn't think of it at the time. Right now I just have one L2 terminal connected to the neutral and just like in the picture from the old wiring all the other neutral wires are combined by wirenut. Are the other L2's just a means to avoid having to wirenut everything together or do all of them need to be connected? The controller came with enough spade connectors for two more. I guess I shouldn't have assumed but it was late and I was tired.

HVACNUT

The L2 neutrals are internally connected. You could just connect one and splice it to the others, but then it won't be pretty.

SuperTech

You don't change wiring to change the control from intermittent to interrupted spark. You change it by setting up the configuration programming, as shown in the instruction manual. You don't want the primary control sending voltage to the igniter terminal unless you have the igniter/transformer wired to it.

djc11369

I believe it's a combination of both changing the wiring and the programming. From the installation instructions:



Setting spark during run to yes should send voltage to the terminal and setting to no would not.

That's how I interpret it, could be wrong

djc11369

So I wanted to update my situation on this. My boiler started to make occasional rumbles and I noticed the CAD cell readings were creeping up. Then last night the rumbles became continuous. I opened it up today to find the nozzle fouled again. So I cleaned up that mess and decided to swap the transformer even though the I had installed this one just a couple of months ago. I also swapped the CAD eye at the same time. Not only did my rumble go away but I also now able to break out the igniter so I'm thinking the transformer had issues out of the box. My CAD readings are now around 500-600 ohms. For SuperTech, I told you I would check on that valve orange wire and well, here's your first orange one.

HVACNUT

What were the combustion test results? You forgot to post that.

SuperTech

That must be an early version of the AFII. I haven't seen any with a solenoid with an orange wire. Thank you for posting that. I'm not sure how changing the igniter and cad cell eye would affect combustion and rumbling. Once the fire is lit, the operation of the ignition source shouldn't matter. All of the AFII burners I've worked on recently had interrupted ignition.

DZoro

You have been involved with the control side of this, and is not your issue. Advice early on was to get a tech involved, situation is only getting worse. Soot is certainly building up and plugging up your system. I'd be looking at finding a tech to clean and properly tune with a combustion analyzer the system. Smoke test, draft, oil pressure, and combustion must all be tested.
IMHO
D

STEVEusaPA

You're initial post was intermittent lockouts. You still have not figured out why.
That's the standard hack tech fix seen in the field all the time. New nozzle, adjust the electrodes, new cad cell eye, and throw some other parts at it-no true diagnostics, no combustion testing.
Not interested in figuring out why the nozzle was fouled.
Look forward to your next update when something else goes wrong, or the same thing happens again...

As far as the orange wire and the MC, looks like someone just rewired it in the field.