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Looking for Hago Type P 4.5gph 45 degree

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Mike_Sheppard
Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 696
edited January 2020 in THE MAIN WALL
I believe these Hago type P nozzles have been discontinued. Is there any way to still get them?

Beckett CF800 Burner on a Weil Mclain 80 series. I’ve been having issues for months now at this site. They burn great. Light off great. But after a month to two months the diffusers get sooted up to the point they start to fail on ignition. Clean the diffusers up and they light off.

I’ve gone over everything myself and with tech support many times now. Everything is set properly. Combustion, draft, overfire, all good.

There are two things tech support just suggested that I try.

1) They said I should run them richer. Manual says ~5.3% O2. I have them at 5.1%. Tech support said running at that O2 can cause “wetting” of the diffuser which will cause it to soot up. They said running it at high 3s or low 4% O2s would help reduce diffuser sooting.

2) They said switching to a Hago Type P nozzle would help tremendously. But that nozzle is discontinued. They said at the factory the Hago nozzle worked amazingly but when they discontinued it and switched to the Delavan, they started having issues with the diffusers sooting up.

Anyone have any experience with this issue? Can I still find these Hago nozzles anywhere?
Never stop learning.

Comments

  • Dan Foley
    Dan Foley Member Posts: 1,258
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    Mike,

    We are having a similar issue with a Burnham V-9 with a Beckett CF burner.

    Specs call for a Hago 5.50 x 45 P

    Let me know if you find a source.

    - DF
    Mike_Sheppard
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    How long ago were they discontinued? I bought 2-5.50 x 45 P's from RE Michel a year and a half ago, and they had to order them.
    I'd check Sid Harvey for stock.
    It is annoying because I also found that in the same setup as @Dan Foley only the Hago worked perfectly. Substitutions were always a little off.
    @Mike_Sheppard maybe the Delavan Rep can point you at the best substitute.
    I don't see the rest of your numbers for combustion, but with the bigger burners/boilers, over fire draft is the key, then combustion air setting for true zero smoke (on high fire). Maybe not enough of a cushion on the air?
    If you have them dialed in, I wouldn't be too concerned with 1% of O2.
    However, I would check to make sure nothing is affecting combustion air(or draft) during the course of the day/season.

    Which nozzle are you using now?

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    Dan Foley
  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 696
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    @STEVEusaPA

    Current combustion:
    4% O2
    3ppm CO
    425 stack temp
    +0.3 overfire
    -0.05 draft
    Delavan 4.5gph 45B

    All settings match manufacturer data.

    I’ve tried more and less overfire. Different head settings. Different Delavan nozzles. All ends up the same, sooted diffuser.
    Never stop learning.
  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 696
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    @Dan Foley @STEVEusaPA

    Here is the article. They were discontinued in 2018.

    Says solid spray pattern nozzles under 6.00gph have been consolidated to the Hago B nozzle.

    Perhaps a Hago B nozzle would work well as a replacement for the P.
    Never stop learning.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    Well they are both solids, only one way to find out unfortunately.
    What was your excess air?

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 696
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    @STEVEusaPA

    Whatever the calculated excess air is at 4% O2. I think it’s around 23%.

    I’ve tried running it leaner and richer than that for months at a time and it made zero difference. I’ve tried different head settings. Different overfire draft. 60 degree Delavan nozzle. 45 degree Delavan nozzle. No matter what I do the diffuser soots up.

    And then tech support tells me today that they have had issues with the Delavan nozzles on CF500/800 on Weil Mclain 80 series sooting up the diffuser. But of course the nozzle they recommend using doesn’t exist anymore.
    Never stop learning.
  • retiredguy
    retiredguy Member Posts: 915
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    As a last resort, you could turn up the oil delivery pressure to maximum for better atomization and reset the combustion. On some jobs that I could not get working correctly, I would see if a 300 psig pump were available, install that pump[, down size the nozzle and set up for best combustion. IF it worked I was the hero of the day.
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 863
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    I have a bunch of Hago, Sid Harvey and Delevan nozzles sitting in nozzle boxes on the shelf in my shop. If there are any that you guys need specifically, please let me know. Here is a photo of one of the trays.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,635
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    @Mike_Sheppard

    January 2018, RW Beckett was informed by our supplier Hago Nozzles that they would be closing their Mountainside, NJ manufacturing facility in May 2018. They have subsequently moved manufacturing of Hago nozzles to a Danfoss facility in Europe.

    This change has affected their product offering for ‘Solid’ pattern nozzles used in Beckett and other oil burners. Hago has discontinued the ‘ES’ and ‘P’ spray patterns which have been used as ‘spec’ nozzles in some of our burners for quite some time. They have consolidated all solid spray pattern nozzles to their ‘B’ solid pattern.

    Additionally, this has been complicated by the fact that we were more recently informed that the ‘B’ pattern nozzle will only be available from Hago in ratings up to 6.00GPH. The ‘P’ pattern nozzle, popular in our line of commercial burners, will no longer be available, and there is no solid pattern nozzle above 6.00gph available from Hago.

    RW Beckett has been extensively testing these new ‘B’ nozzles in various applications to assure you, our valued customers, that in performance and burner set-up you will continue to get the very best combination of burner and nozzle for each specification that calls for a Hago nozzle.

    Actions we are taking:

    All specifications for nozzles above 6.00GPH will be changing to Delavan ‘B’ nozzles as our supply of Danfoss ‘P’ nozzles are depleted.
    All specifications for Hago ‘ES’, ‘P’, and current ‘B’ nozzles are being evaluated for flowrate, pattern, and performance vs. the new versions now being supplied. So far, these results are very promising and we look forward to continuing to offer Hago nozzles for the applications where they work best.
    Please feel free to contact your Account Rep, Sales Engineer, or our Technical Service Department with any questions or concerns.

    We used to have that problem with old Power Flames back in the 60s

    their 20 gallon burner used 2 nozzles , the 30 gallon used 3. They were all Stinein 90 degree semi solid.

    When Stinein stopped making them that was it.


    The only thing you can do is a nozzle substitution test.


    You would be surprised, you sometimes need to go completely in a different direction.

    I have had jobs where you would think from the problem a narrow spray angle would fix the burner and a wider angle was the fix

    time consuming I know.

    I agree with @retiredguy , bump the pump pressure, through the burner manual away and go for it....or replace the burner

    Beckett should come up with the fix instead of throwing up their hands

    new diffuser, new blast tube whatever
    Dan Foley
  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 696
    edited January 2020
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    @ScottSecor PLEASE let me buy the Hago 4.5 45P’s from you

    @Dan Foley would like your 5.50 45P’s
    Never stop learning.
  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 696
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    @EBEBRATT-Ed I have some Delavan 4.00 60Bs I can try. At 4.00 I would have to bump the oil pressure up a bit. It’s currently at 150 psi on a 4.50 nozzle.
    Never stop learning.
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 863
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    @Mike_Sheppard please send me a pm with your address and I get you the nozzles you want.
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 863
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    @Dan Foley , please do the same.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,904
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    @EBEBRATT-Ed I have some Delavan 4.00 60Bs I can try. At 4.00 I would have to bump the oil pressure up a bit. It’s currently at 150 psi on a 4.50 nozzle.

    That's what I'd do- try a Delavan 60° solid nozzle. ISTR those Hago spray patterns were in fact a bit wider than the Delavan equivalents. Going to the 60° may match the burner's air pattern better.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 696
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    @Steamhead I had a 60 degree Delavan 4.50gph type B solid in it before these 45 degree nozzles and I had the same result. No matter what I did the diffusers soot up. But I also have some 4.0s that I can try which I will need to increase the pressure for. Maybe it will help.

    I want to try these Hago 45 degree Ps that Scott has. If it fixes the sooting issue then it was definitely nozzle related. If not I guess I’m missing something.
    Never stop learning.
  • retiredguy
    retiredguy Member Posts: 915
    edited January 2020
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    This discussion reminds me of the time I got a call from a competitor that I knew in central Pennsylvania. He was looking for an 80 degree nozzle for a Bryan boiler and had questions about the set-up. I can't remember what burner was installed. His problem was that they had to change the air tube/blast tube quite a few times due to oil impingement when firing. They had called Bryan for answers (what a mistake). They tried numerous nozzle types and sizes. When he was done talking I said that they were using the wrong nozzle. That 80 degree was actually a 30 degree nozzle and I had a few. Problem solved. When you service every type of oil unit an oil nozzle is not just an oil nozzle. I carried hundreds all the way up to 60 GPH. @ Mike Sheppard my largest was just over 200 GPH and they were all steam atomized. The 150 GPH and below could have been either steam or air atomized.
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,188
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    60 GPH?!!! I'm pretty sure the largest one I have ever needed was 3.5 GPH. I don't service many commercial oil burners.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
    edited January 2020
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    Where's that 60 gph account...:)
    By tracking all info about every component on every account, I only have the nozzles in my truck that I need, plus some nozzles I've inherited and never used.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 696
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    I’m the other way around. A 4.5gph is tiny compared to what I’m used to. I replaced a 28gph recently and even that was smaller than I usually see. Largest boiler I’ve worked on that runs oil was over 400gph
    Never stop learning.
    SuperTech
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,635
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    Largest I ever worked on was 120 gph #6 oil and gas combination

    @Mike_Sheppard , one thing I wanted to point out is and @Steamhead made an important comment which i will get to in the end.

    Sometime you need to do the opposite of what you think.

    I had a Carlin 150 FR which was a slow speed (1725) flame retention burner back in the 70s.

    It had been installed for a few years and never had any issues ran great. All of a sudden it started building carbon on the chamber floor. We changed the nozzle NG. We checked the blast tube height from the chamber floor and it was where it should be. But we raised the burner anyhow.

    It still made carbon.

    I think as I recall, this burner used a 60 or 70 hago hollow. We tried 60s and 70s NG

    We had the Carlin factory guy in. Checked it over and ended up with an 80 deg Hollow.

    It worked

    We never thought a wider nozzle would work better, common sense said wider would be worse.

    I asked him why and he said two things, different oil and the same thing @Steamhead said "fits the air pattern of the burner better"

    45 years later I never forgot that.

    This is the reason that mfg specs don't work 100% of the time.

    "no one can predict the air pattern of a burner in every particular boiler it is installed in" The closer the nozzle oil pattern fits the air pattern the better combustion will be.


    beckett should come up with a fix now that the nozzle is no longer available.

    If they have to design a new blast tube to fit an available nozzle so be it.