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Quick question—oil nozzle, what I found in there or what’s on the igniter assembly label?

mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
So, I replaced the oil nozzle in my igniter. I’ve never replaced it since I’ve been in the house (going on 7 years). It was pretty easy, but the one I took out is a .75 70B . The one I replaced it with is a 1.00 70W. Why, you ask? Because that’s what the label on the igniter itself says (it’s a Beckett).

My feeling is that a furnace repair person put the wrong nozzle in for some reason (maybe it’s what they had), but I wanted to get an opinion from the forum. I’m happy to go get the same size as the nozzle I replaced and do it again, but when the manufacturer says the size, I’m inclined to go with that size and spray pattern.


Comments

  • JellisJellis Member Posts: 203
    edited January 14
    NO NO NO!

    You have created a dangerous situation and your furnace is likely now creating very high amounts of soot that will plug your furnace and could create a deadly situation.

    My advice
    1. Stop running the furnace immediately. Turn off at emergency switch
    2. put in the size nozzle that was there before.
    3. have a qualified tech come service the unit and perform a combustion analysis.

    This combustion test is the only way to ensure your unit is not creating dangerous products of combustion that can reduce efficiency of your heating unit, or worse.

    A plugged furnace will fill your house with Carbon Monoxide and could possible kill you and others in the home.
    rick in Alaska
  • mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
    edited January 14
    I’m glad you told me. I’m happy to put in the old one. It’s only been running for 15 minutes or so. I can certainly replace it with the same size that was in there.

    Researching a little further, it seems that the nozzle could have been selected by a technician who was turning the furnace for combustion air flow, so what’s on the label may not be the proper nozzle size anymore. It’s a shame that the technician did not put a label or tag on the igniter to reflect that change. Any technician who works on the furnace would have to know that a different size and spray pattern had been substituted for a reason.
  • mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
    edited January 14
    Just to be clear, 70W Is a universal nozzle compared to the 70B or the 70A nozzles. So the spray pattern is appropriate and should fit the combustion chamber properly. The 1.00 refers to gallons per hour, so the nozzle I replaced used .75 gallons per hour.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,084
    @mancuso
    You shouldn't be fiddling with your burner. You could cause a real problem.

    Listen to what @Jellis said. a "W" is likley not correct for that burner.

    Modern equipment cannot be set by eye you must use combustion test equipment
  • JellisJellis Member Posts: 203
    edited January 14
    indeed a W can be used to safely replace an A or B nozzle, however since it is not truly an A or B nozzle it will not perform exactly the same as either one. If a unit is designed for an A or a B then you are better served installing one of those. I often use W's when crossing from another manufacturer nozzle. Some systems do indeed call for a W but A and B are far more common.


    As to the nozzle on the label on the burner...
    I don't use this information for the nozzle. This cannot be assumed to be correct for the given installation.
    Techs that work on the boiler should keep detailed notes on a service tag that would call out the new nozzle size. often techs write the nozzle size on the boiler somewhere for easy reference.

    Heating systems are all too often over sized and we often find we can down fire a heating system and save fuel cost for the home owner. Your boiler was likely down fired years ago, hopefully a tech adjusted the oil pump pressure and changed the air mixture appropriately when he put in the smaller nozzle.
    He would have used a combustion anylyzer to make sure the flame was burning as "clean" as possible ensuring your system runs as efficient and safely as possible

    That is not to say that a tech did not put an incorrect nozzle in the system at some point. regardless, get a tech out there and have him give your system some attention 7 years since a tune guarantees system is in dire need of at least a brushing and filter change.

    it may feel like your saving money by not having someone come clean it every year, but your money just goes up the chimney instead of to your local friendly serviceman and his family.





  • mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
    edited January 14
    My local HVAC contractor told me he was happy with the 70W replacing the 70B, but agreed with me that matching the .75 GPH was better than the 1.00 GPH. He’s looking to see if he has one in the back of the shop for me.
    I’ve replaced the filter regularly, so that’s fine. I think it’s time to have the furnace cleaned, but it’s not bad, so I’ll wait until the end of the season or fall.
  • mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
    The first winter I was here I was blowing through almost $800 of fuel oil a month with the cold temps in January-March, so spending a couple of hundred $$ for a professional to come in was actually a nice cost savings.
  • BDR529BDR529 Member Posts: 105
    Been running fine for 7 years. Now i'm going to screw with it!

    Bah Ha Ha!
    SuperTechmancuso
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,412
    The W is not a universal nozzle. I don't know where you got your information.

    Please put your tools away and call a pro.
    First, there is a margin of error with the GPH that's stamped on the nozzle.
    What's the pump pressure? You dont know.
    What's the over fire and breach draft readings?
    You don't know.
    Is it firing with a 0 smoke?
    You don't know.
    What does the combustion report say?
    You dont have an analyzer so you don't know.

    But anyone can replace a nozzle right? Wrong!

    You're in over your head. Call a pro
    SuperTechSTEVEusaPA
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,193
    edited January 14
    When a manufacturer releases a specific nozzle and pump pressure to be used with there product, it is noted on the appliance label, not the igniter (or any replaceable part). They will also usually put a sticker on the side of the burner if the pump pressure is NOT 100 psi.
    It's unfortunately fairly common for techs to come, not have the right nozzle, put one in that's 'close'. Then the next tech might come in and put one in that's 'close' to the last one. And eventually you could be way off from your original starting point.
    A tech could've also changed the pump pressure.
    I can't tell if the OP did all this himself or not, seems to be conflicting info in the posts.
    So the best course of action, like others mentioned, is to get a qualified tech to do a complete cleaning/service-nozzle, filter, strainer. Check/confirm the pump pressure & z dimension, use the OEM guide to get all the settings back to their original starting settings, and full combustion test to fine tune the burner.
    I'm not a big fan of underfiring. I don't think it saves much oil, and what is 'saved' is most likely wasted with poorer combustion.
    steve
    Jellis
  • mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
    edited January 14
    Just to clarify a bit more, my heating contractor recommended that I replace the nozzle because I've started going through a bit more fuel oil than I had been for 7 years. They know my level of skill, and they're fine with it, including gapping the electrodes (mine are set to 1/8", 1/8", and 1/2"), etc.

    As for the W nozzles, you'll have to argue with Delevan and the nozzle manufacturers who specify that the W designation is a universal replacement for the hollow (A) and solid (B) spray pattern nozzles. However, Jellis above made a great point that universal is not the exact same spray pattern as the hollow or solid. In fact, I feel that if a tech tuned the furnace to a .75 70B, then that's what it's been set to fire best with. My heating contractor in town recommended a W, but agreed that if .75 GPH was the original designation, that .75 GPH should be the replacement.

    I definitely appreciate Jellis' and STEVEusaPA's posts--they were very valuable in letting me know to take a step back, which I did putting the original nozzle back in place. I'm working in coordination with my heating contractor, who is in the loop on all of this, to get an exact replacement. And I'm going to have the whole system cleaned/serviced/tuned by them as per STEVEusaPA's last post. I think the unit can be more efficient than it is, and I believe that's the proper way to do it.
  • mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
    By the way, the place _has_ been a lot warmer the past few years regardless since I sprayed foam insulation inside the walls. This place was built in 1900, and every outside wall had siding outside, plaster/wood lathe inside...and nothing in between. I know this is how they were made, but wow.
  • LanceLance Member Posts: 142
    I may have missed it in the comments but has anyone advised to always without fail perform a combustion test record? We can change fuel input, by orifice, pressure, type of fuel, we can also change air input by draft, dampers, soot and blowers. What we should not do is ignore the results. We need zero smoke and as high efficiency as can be achieved with proper btuh input. I once had a MFG that could never burn clean when set up with the factory recommend nozzle, which they sized to sell heat capacity. The admitted 10 installations later with my combustion tests they overfired to get the rating. This left a smoky burn which lead to heat losses up the flue. 1/16" soot cost 10% efficiency. SO we went from 1.0gal to .9 gal and all was right and good again. Argue all the points you want but in the end all these points work together to make it right.
  • JellisJellis Member Posts: 203
    @mancuso
    If your using more fuel than normal the primary cause is likely a sooted up heat exchanger. the new nozzle would not hurt but also would not help a great deal in money savings.
    Having clean filters, unplugged nozzles and properly spaced electrodes all assist in "proper combustion" when proper combustion occurs fewer "products of combustion" are created and your boiler stays relatively clean and free of soot.
    STEVEusaPAHVACNUT
  • mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
    I'm going to talk to the heating guys about coming out to check, clean, and tune things. Thanks, Jellis. Honestly, it'll likely save me $$ even this season, but I'm more concerned about efficiency and safety. So I appreciate the help.
    Jellis
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,967
    I haven’t seen an oil burner in over 30 years and will most likely not see a another one other than here on the Wall.

    IIRC, I thought the burner had the range of GPH posted and the furnace/boiler had the min/max with type of nozzle on it’s own label.
    This was because of the design of each burner chamber being possibly different??


  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,193
    edited January 14
    JUGHNE said:

    I haven’t seen an oil burner in over 30 years and will most likely not see a another one other than here on the Wall.

    IIRC, I thought the burner had the range of GPH posted and the furnace/boiler had the min/max with type of nozzle on it’s own label.
    This was because of the design of each burner chamber being possibly different??


    Each manufacturer tests, and publishes an OEM spec book which is usually the best set up for air tube combo, head, nozzle, air settings and pump pressure.
    Usually on the equipment label, they will put the nozzle spec'd (or more than one for different firing ranges) as well as all the other stuff: draft range, static pressure, temperature rise etc.
    I always refer to this the first time I touch an oil burner to bring it back to its original settings.
    From there, with a full combustion test-steady state, then draft, smoke analysis, the tech can dial it in to true zero smoke and its best combustion. Only then would I try a different nozzle if I wasn't get the expected results.
    Older units and conversions required a competent tech to perform a nozzle substitution test to find the right spray angle and spray type-hollow, solid, semi solid, etc.
    I still have yet to meet anyone out in the field who's done a substitution test besides myself. Most just eyeballed it.

    To the OP. Sorry to say, if your heating contractor thinks nozzle replacement is the cure for excessive oil use, he's clueless. Needs a full cleaning/tune up as mentioned by myself, @Jellis mentioned.
    steve
    HVACNUTmancusoSuperTechJellis
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,412
    > @STEVEusaPA said:
    > (Quote)
    > Each manufacturer tests, and publishes an OEM spec book which is usually the best set up for air tube combo, head, nozzle, air settings and pump pressure.
    > Usually on the equipment label, they will put the nozzle spec'd (or more than one for different firing ranges) as well as all the other stuff: draft range, static pressure, temperature rise etc.
    > I always refer to this the first time I touch an oil burner to bring it back to its original settings.
    > From there, with a full combustion test-steady state, then draft, smoke analysis, the tech can dial it in to true zero smoke and its best combustion. Only then would I try a different nozzle if I wasn't get the expected results.
    > Older units and conversions required a competent tech to perform a nozzle substitution test to find the right spray angle and spray type-hollow, solid, semi solid, etc.
    > I still have yet to meet anyone out in the field who's done a substitution test besides myself. Most just eyeballed it.
    >
    > To the OP. Sorry to say, if your heating contractor thinks nozzle replacement is the cure for excessive oil use, he's clueless. Needs a full cleaning/tune up as mentioned by myself, @Jellis mentioned.


    Knock it off. It's just a nozzle.
    And I have 3/4 and 5/8 wrenches. The fire looks good when I look through the little door.
    STEVEusaPASuperTech
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,193
    .
    HVACNUT said:

    Knock it off. It's just a nozzle.
    And I have 3/4 and 5/8 wrenches. The fire looks good when I look through the little door

    And you use your lighter to check draft?? lol
    steve
    SuperTech
  • mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
    Here’s the rest of the info you mentioned, btw. The .75 70B is what I put back in. It’s time for a full servicing, I agree. Annoying for a unit that heats only the first floor of my house (no ducts go to the second floor in this house, it’s all electric baseboard up there except for the bathroom) and that I want to change out for a different system. I’m just not ready until next year. But there’s no excuse not to service the current unit properly.






  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,193
    edited January 15
    I think you’re underfired, and/or they did the smoke test wrong and the combustion air isn’t properly adjusted.
    I’d go back to the 1.00 x 70W.
    I’d have the tech check the integrity of the end cone.
    Furnace is probably way oversized.
    steve
    mancusoSuperTech
  • mancusomancuso Member Posts: 10
    Thanks, Steve. I’ll check with the heating techs and have them come i don’t want to change anything else myself with the furnace now that I put the old nozzle back in. Safety aside, it’s like I used to say about transmissions: you can do it, but you have to be qualified and in practice. And I don’t want to be that much in practice. 😂
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,084
    @mancuso,

    The combustion test numbers you posted are nor very good.

    You need somebody that knows what they are doing with combustion test equipment.

    The correct nozzle for any burner may or may not be the one on the burner nameplate.

    The one that has the best combustion is the right one.

    The one on the sticker is usually right, but I have seen plenty of jobs where the nozzle the mfg spec did not work.
    mancuso
  • rick in Alaskarick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,086
    So, the nameplate says it can run between .75 and 1.0 gph, using a 70 degree w nozzle. His stack temperature is 443 degrees. Why would he want to go with a 1.0 gph nozzle, and why not stick with the w nozzle?
    And just to stir things up, I almost never have a boiler or furnace that has the same size nozzle as on the nameplate. The units are always oversized, and if my stack temperature is that high, I want to get it down lower. In the above test slip, it is probably that high due to the c02 being so low and having too much air. Or possibly excessive draft.
    The data plate on the boiler, to me anyway, is the maximum you can fire it at, not the only firing rate. If I can get 350 degrees, 11%co2, and zero smoke, then it should be as best as it can be.
    Rick
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,412
    edited January 15
    I agree the combustion report isn't too good. It is from 2012 though.

    No one can say for certain what the firing rate should be.
    Like mentioned, a heat loss and making sure the ductwork is sized correctly. Is there an A/C evaporator coil on top?

    As a service guy, and not having the time to do that, except maybe seeing refrigerant lines in my face, I check the name plate. When I pull the assembly, I might say "OK", or "Hmm, I wonder why".

    Once a new nozzle is in, I might need to change it again and make adjustments depending on combustion, smoke, draft, and TD across the HX.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,084
    @rick in Alaska
    I usually go against the grain. Most on her say you can't down fire and must use the nozzle the mfg wants. I don't agree I think running a boiler or furnace usually operates better downfired 1 size or say 10-15%, less short cycling , longer burn time, stays cleaner JMHO.

    In the case above his stack temp some would consider on the high side. He has too much excess air which is going along for the ride bringing his stack temp up. (whoops you already mentioned that)

    Properly adjusted the stack would come down.

    as far a hollow solid or W most burners follow the same flame pattern from a smaller flame to a larger but you never know for sure so I usually stick with whatever the mfg wants....if the numbers are good.

    On the other hand I have had jobs where I was out with Carlin years ago and the nozzle they had spec didn't work

    So I always start with what the mfg wants but if it doesn't work try something else

    rick in Alaska
  • EdTheHeaterManEdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 621
    edited January 16
    All the experts have chimed in and not one of them mentioned the customer that calls and says "Why 'all of a sudden' did my burner act up. it has been workin' fine for 7 years". To which I answer all of a sudden it has 7 years of dirt built-up on the... whatever. and they reply "Oh, i guess that is not 'all of a sudden'".

    So if these two fans were identical which one would deliver more combustion air to the chamber.


    Professional Annual maintenance is in the Oneida Royal installation manual on Page 14. second column near the bottom.


    and continues on the next page. However I believe @mancuso is onboard now!
    Best of luck and keep SAFE!
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,084
    @EdTheHeaterMan

    Who knows whats wrong with it? He wants to tinker with it himself. Could be anything, but he started it off saying he thought it had the wrong nozzle in it
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