What am I seeing here?

caseycamire

Hello again everyone - I've been trying to diagnose the issue in the videos linked without much luck:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AoCQ5hZPbMFJYUCr5

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMCT3JFx0W13ZdhzlrbJAaX73hWLRfSpljEE8tt

This is as the system cycles on. All the hissing and popping radiator vents you see are HOT.

In the second video, around 30 seconds in I use my glasses to demonstrate that what's coming out is steam.

I have installed Gorton vents on my mains and radiators more or less according to their diagram. My radiators are all angled back towards the steam valve.

Is this wet steam? Poor radiator tilting? I haven't insulated my mains yet - would that help? Am I overpressurizing? Any and all of those things? Any thoughts appreciated!

acwagner

I assume this is the end of the cycle for a regular call for heat?

I looked at some of your other posts, but I couldn't find what pressure you are running at. Have you watched the boiler pressure during a typical run?

Nice house by the way!

Hap_Hazzard

Were you ever able to determine what your actual pressure is or if your pressuretrol is actually cutting out where it's supposed to? If there's no effective limit on the pressure your system can develop, it can exceed the maximum operating pressure of your vents, especially if your boiler is a little oversized to begin with and/or someone has jacked up the burners.

Have you made sure your pigtail is clear and the pressuretrol is operating correctly?

Have you compared the EDR of your radiators to the EDR of your boiler?

Have you clocked your gas meter to ensure that the energy input is correct?

Where are you located?

caseycamire

Hey guys! Thanks for the responses.

Here's a link to a very crude diagram of my steam lines.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WPJ3YHWmzV59dFyC6

The circles are my air eliminators, the x's are the risers coming off the mains. The x's are labeled 1-4, running clockwise.

Riser 1 goes to the kitchen on the first floor (about 5 foot riser) as well as the second floor (another 10-12 feet at least). Risers 2, 3, and 4 are at least 15ish feet, as they go directly to the second floor.

"No. 5" and "No.6" refer to the air vent on the radiators connected to each riser.

All steam lines are uninsulated. I am planning on insulating the lines tomorrow.

Here's what I did this morning, in order.

-Removed and cleaned out pigtail. It was definitely blocked up.
-Checked that the pressure gauge was functioning (it is).
-Set pressuretroller to 0.5psi
-Called for heat and monitored the boiler and the radiators.

Heat call/cycle observations - in order
-Radiators vent air at start of call/cycle. This is very quiet.
-Initially vents closed and radiators started to heat up.
-At this point, the boiler pressure gauge was still reading 0 psi.
-I went back upstairs and vents had begun hissing (less than five minutes.
-I went back downstairs to basement. The Gorton no1 eliminator was hot, and not venting. The Gorton no2 was not hot, even though the radiators at the end of the risers about 2 feet before the vent were
-Pressure gauge had increased to 2psi when boiler shut down.
-I went back upstairs, and radiators were still hissing steam, but more quietly. Once they stopped hissing, I went back to basement and found pressure gauge back at 0 psi.

Observations/Questions:
-The loudest hissing radiators are the ones coming off risers 3 and 4. I was surprised the Gorton no2 air eliminator was never hot throughout the cycle. Should I relocate it to be in line BEFORE risers 3 and 4? Just after? In between? Leave it alone? It is around 4 feet AFTER riser 4 and is connected to the condensate return line.
-All radiators hissed with steam to some extent.

@acwagner - thanks for helping again! I was definitely wrong in my last post. This morning I observed a full cycle, and the hissing/steam is not at the end of the heat cycle, but is continuous throughout it. The vents blow steam the entire time the boiler is on. Once the boiler shut down, they continued to vent off the 2psi that had built up, but didn't stop hissing/close until the pressure read 0 psi. They don't actually pull any vacuum until they cool off, and the vacuum pull is very quiet.

@Hap_Hazzard - Based on my observations I can't tell if the pressuretroller was working. The pressure was reading 0 most of the cycle, and then I think it quickly rose to 2 psi, at which point the boiler shut down. The thermostat had also reached the set temperature (exceeded it a bit, actually) around that time, so I don't know if it shut down because of the pressuretroller or the thermostat. I haven't done any EDR comparisons - any good resources to learn about doing that? If it helps, I'm in Wallingford, CT. This photo is of the pressure gauge right after the boiler shut down. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Gj5BGHNQLLrYDEAG8

nicholas bonham-carter

Check the pipe slope with a level, before insulating. Put labels on the side, with arrows showing the direction of flow according to slope shown on the level.
If all is well, all arrows should point in the same direction.--NBC

Hap_Hazzard

caseycamire said:

-Set pressuretroller to 0.5psi

So, that's what it says on the outside. That's the "cut-in" pressure. To set the cut-out pressure, you need to remove the cover and turn the white thumbwheel to the desired setting. If you set this to 1, your cut-out pressure will be 1 + the cut-in pressure, or, in your case, 1.5 psi. At that setting, the pressure should never reach 2 psi. The Pressuretrol should cut the burners at 1.5 and turn them back on when the pressure drops to .5, assuming the thermostat has not been satisfied.

That being said, 2 psi is well within the operating pressure range of your vents. Are your vents hissing when the pressure is 2 psi or less?

acwagner

If your pigtail was blocked then your pressuretrol wouldn't be able to "see" the operating pressure.

Now that it's clear and if you adjust the pressuretrol settings, try observing it for a bit and see if that improved things.

The Gorton #2 should be hot. Can you feel the pipe before it and see where it transitions from steam hot to not?

caseycamire

@acwagner - going from Riser 4 to the Gorton No. 2, the hot/cool transition happens within a few inches after Riser 4. It seems the steam is going up the risers and not hitting the air eliminator.

@Hap_Hazzard - good tip! I'll do that now. I wondered what those wheels were for....

@nicholas bonham-carter - another good tip! I'll do that before I insulate.

Also, some other questions:

-Could wet steam prevent air vents from closing?
-Should I figure out a way to vent the risers?

acwagner

As an experiment, try removing the Gorton #2 and leaving the hole open and see if steam makes it there.

caseycamire

@acwagner - good call here. I pulled off the Gorton #2, and steam was getting to the hole, but the Gorton was...jammed? It wasn't opened or closed, and I couldn't blow any air through it easily. I knocked it about a bit until the valve opened and closed easily/I could blow through it easily, and then put it back in place.

I then kicked up the thermostat to get a full cycle in. Vents still hissed, but nearly all of them closed eventually, it just took nearly the entire heating cycle. Ultimately, it was the thermostat that kicked the boiler off. At the end of the cycle, the pressure gauge read 2psi, even though the cut in/cut out on the pressuretroller should be operating at 1.5psi, if I read the internal plastic wheel correctly (numbers 1-5, with 1 being lowest possible setting).

The Gorton didn't get hot until the radiator vents off of risers 3 and 4 closed, but it did get hot. Looks like the steam is going up the risers before hitting the evacuator...does that mean the evacuator isn't doing much.

Regardless, there was one vent that did not close, the No. 5 air vent off of Riser 2. It hissed the whole time. I removed it, and while it did have water in it, it does function properly when inverted.

Questions:
-Should I relocate the Gorton #2 "upstream" to be closer (or even between?) Risers 3 and 4?
-I seem to have some combination of inadequate venting and wet steam. Should I try to get an air evacuator on the risers? Should I have the boiler skimmed?
-Can wet steam prevent air vents from closing?

mattmia2

have you replaced any of the radiator vents? it sounds like something that happened in the past damaged them like lack of main venting pushing debris from the mains in to them or overpressure. you can try soaking one or 2 in vinegar or citric acid and then flushing them out to see if it is rust particles from the main.

caseycamire

I replaced all the vents in the over the course of the year, and I've inspected them all recently, and they seem to close properly. They're all Gorton 5s, 6s, and Ds. I'll pull one and do the soak/flush to see what kind of crud there might be.

acwagner

One Gorton #2 may not be enough to vent that main. Ideally, the main is massively vented relative to the radiators, so, in theory, the main fills up first and then proceeds to the radiators.

I have 4 Gorton's on one of my mains and a Gorton #1 on the other. That's what it took to get the mains balanced relative to each other. Every situation is different, though.

Also, have you measured your radiator EDR and compared it to the boiler rating? I guessing you're boiler is way oversized.

Fred

Are the vents on the radiators attached to risers 3 and 4 Gorton D's? The D vents at the same rate as a Gorton #1 main vent and those radiators may be venting the air instead of the main vent you have on that main.
The Honeywell Pressuretrols are not accurate but if the boiler shuts off at 2 PSI, that's not too bad and should not cause the problem you are having.
I can't tell, from your picture, what the water level in the boiler is. It looks like the sight glass is full, up to the top. It should only be 1/2 to 2/3's full.
How long are the mains and what diameter are they? One vent may not be enough and the steam may be pushing air out through the radiator vents, the path(s) of least resistance.
Are you using deep setbacks on your thermostat? If the boiler has to run for an extended period to bring the house temp back up, it will cause the boiler to build excessive pressure. Does the boiler cut off on pressure numerous times during a heat cycle to get the house up to temp?
If the steam is wet enough, it can prevent the vents from closing but I would expect the main vents to be affected as well. Do we have pictures of the near boiler piping? High water level in the boiler will also throw water up into the mains and carry it throughout the system.
Did this problem start after you changed out the vents or has it always been a problem?

gfrbrookline

I agree with where @Fred was going on the radiator vents. In a residential setting with proper main venting there should be very few instances where you need anything faster than a Gorton 5 on a radiator.

Remember the golden rule of steam, vent the mains quickly and the radiators slowly.