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No heat after adding/divide zone

dagc
dagc Member Posts: 13
edited December 2019 in Oil Heating
I recently updated my oil fired boiler and at the same time I divided my first and second floor zone adding a circulator to it. My house has 2 floors (built in 1955) and about 20 years ago the previous owner add one bedroom to 2 floor and a living room to 1 floor. Which we will call an "addition" to make it clear here. So the addition has its own zone, looking at the picture is the zone #2. The older part of the house were connected where you see the "blue line" but I divided it and now zone #1 is 2nd floor and zone #3 is 1st floor. The red lines are the cold feed (makeup water) .
I realized that my zone #2 will only get hot if:
Scenario 1 - any of my other zones are ON.
Scenario 2 - if I close the shut-off valves for zone #1 and #3.
Otherwise zone #2 will stay ON but won't get hot at all.
Yes, the circulator #2 is connected right as I feel the hot water gets hot at the beginning of the system and about 2 minutes later I feel the return, just before the circulator getting hot too, but only when I have one of the 2 scenarios above.

Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 5,543
    Do you have check valves on each zone since you are zoning with pumps? You are pumping in to the expansion tank, air scoop, and PRV if i am looking at it correctly?
  • dagc
    dagc Member Posts: 13
    Haven't touch this section of the system, exception of new expansion tank. I included a picture of the section for better view with details of each zone.
  • Jolly Bodger
    Jolly Bodger Member Posts: 209
    First thing is to make sure all the air is out of the system. It could be air locking at the top of the system.
    The pictures show a lack of check valve issue. Looks like zone 3 is on it's own Flow-Check, but the other two and the DHW share the same Flow-Check. This means these zones could reverse flow through each other. Is there a check valve on the DHW down the line? Will zone 2 work if you only close the valve for zone 1?
    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 5,543
    My comments about the not pumping away was jsut an observation that it isn't ideal. Your problem is probably lack of flow checks unless they are in the pump outlets or in some piping you aren't showing.

    You also need to make sure you did your math so you aren't running low return water temps too much of the time and making the boiler condense and you are keeping an acceptable amount of flow through the boiler, not to little or too much, regardless of what combination of zones is calling.
  • Gman66
    Gman66 Member Posts: 41
    Plumbing you your makeup water into each of the zones the way you have it has created an unintended bypass which you cannot turn off. The makeup piping should be all be capped in front of the circulators and rerouted to a common spot on the supply side, likely into the expansion tank piping for ease.
    mattmia2
  • dagc
    dagc Member Posts: 13
    > @Jolly Bodger said:
    > First thing is to make sure all the air is out of the system. It could be air locking at the top of the system.
    > The pictures show a lack of check valve issue. Looks like zone 3 is on it's own Flow-Check, but the other two and the DHW share the same Flow-Check. This means these zones could reverse flow through each other. Is there a check valve on the DHW down the line? Will zone 2 work if you only close the valve for zone 1?

    I don't believe that I still have any air trapped. I checked that twice.
    Yes zone 3 has its own flow-check and the other ones shares with zone 1 & 2 + DHW
    No the DHW does not have one down the line.
    And yes, zone 2 will work if I close zone 1

    So I probably just have to add one flow-check to each other zones.

    Looking at the picture attached here. Can I just add a flow-check to zone 1 and another one to zone 2 and leave the "shared" flow-check to DHW?
  • dagc
    dagc Member Posts: 13
    > @Gman66 said:
    > Plumbing you your makeup water into each of the zones the way you have it has created an unintended bypass which you cannot turn off. The makeup piping should be all be capped in front of the circulators and rerouted to a common spot on the supply side, likely into the expansion tank piping for ease.

    It was like that before, I just add another one to the new piping (zone 3).
    So I can cap all that and bring the makeup water and "tee" my pipe for the exp tank?!
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 5,543
    edited December 2019
    You can cap 2 of the 3 and just leave one connected, it just needs to connect to the system at one point, usually where the air elimination and expansion tank are but that isn't critical. The air elimination and expansion tank would eliminate air and provide for expansion better on the suction side of the pump, but it should work ok where it is.

    This is the modern way to pipe it:
    https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/pumping-away-piping/

    You also need to have a check valve in each zone somewhere where the piping is still separate to keep the pump from the other zones from pumping through that zone instead/in addition to the boiler. The check valves may be there and integral to the outlet of the pumps.
    Jolly Bodger
  • Jolly Bodger
    Jolly Bodger Member Posts: 209
    @dagc like mattmia2 said. Adda check valve for each zone 1, 2 and DHW. A simple spring loaded check will do. No need to install flow-checks. I would install the checks on the discharge of the pumps and open the flow-check for that set of zones. Zone 3 should be fine with it's flow-check.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 3,203
    edited December 2019
    http://media.blueridgecompany.com/documents/ZoningMadeEasy.pdf
    This is a text published by Bell & Gossett that will explain what you need to do. Start on page 11.

    here is a diagram on what is happening with your system that shares flo-check valves.
    the path of least resistance is NOT thru the boiler in your situation.


    The easy fix is an insert in your existing circulators as long as the piping is configured correctly.
    You can order the insert to add to your existing circulators, part number 0010-025RP

    You may need to replace the RED B&G circulator with another Taco 007F5-7IFC (comes with the insert) then screw open the shared (red) flo-check
    Finally on page 13 is a diagram of how to pipe the makeup water into your system. All except for the circulator location being on the supply, you should follow the illustration as closely as possible. This will allow you to purge baseboard radiators loops from the basement. In the summer you can tackle the whole "Pumping Away from the expansion tank" thing if you are up for that. You should read more about the concept to understand the reason. @DanHolohan has a book on the subject in the STORE on this website.

    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 3,203
    follow-up: After reading additional posts and pics, it appears that the larger zone #3 circulator is on its own flo-control valve. That needs no change or adjustment. Zone 1 & 2 & DHW all need separate Flo-check valves. If the DHW has a newer Taco 007 you may only need to add the insert. Older 007 circs. won't accept the insert. so just purchase a new circ mentioned above. Be sure to manually open the shared (Smaller Red One) Flow Check by turning the top handle counterclockwise 'til it stops. Leave it open permanently. There is a packing nut you can tighten if it leaks a little.
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
  • dagc
    dagc Member Posts: 13
    > @EdTheHeaterMan said:
    > follow-up: After reading additional posts and pics, it appears that the larger zone #3 circulator is on its own flo-control valve. That needs no change or adjustment. Zone 1 & 2 & DHW all need separate Flo-check valves. If the DHW has a newer Taco 007 you may only need to add the insert. Older 007 circs. won't accept the insert. so just purchase a new circ mentioned above. Be sure to manually open the shared (Smaller Red One) Flow Check by turning the top handle counterclockwise 'til it stops. Leave it open permanently. There is a packing nut you can tighten if it leaks a little.

    Job done, everything is working as it should.
    I added check valves and capped all the those pipes from the feed before to the circulators and rerouted to the expansion tank pipe as recommended.
    One last thing, the red flow check it won't stop turning counterclockwise. It was kind stuck and the little handle striped, so I turned with a help of a locking plier and that just kept turning and turning
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 3,203
    @dagc said: "One last thing, the red flow check it won't stop turning counterclockwise. It was kind stuck and the little handle striped, so I turned with a help of a locking plier and that just kept turning and turning"
    OK, it is probably fine. It is old and the stop is probably broken. If the flow valve is doing its job. don't worry about it. "If it ain't broke don't fix it"
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org