Steam Problems

kaik

Hey everyone, I live in a turn of the century loft building with steam heating. My landlord recently had a myriad of different sized hot water radiators installed that were converted to run on a 2 pipe steam system. Now, I’m not a rocket scientist but the condensate return line that was installed is higher than the bottom of some of the radiators. When the boiler kicks on, the water hammer is straight up brutal and once that stops after an hour or 2, most of the radiators sound like they’re boiling water inside and don’t even heat. So, the question I have for you is we’re these installed correctly? Isn’t this a gravity feed system for the condensate return? Is the waterhammer due to the condensate not being able to drain up and over the return branch line since it’s an upwards run? More so, is this dangerous? Because the water hammer is insane. Sorry in advance if these terms aren’t correct. I’ll attach some photos for you as well so you can see what I’m talking about. Thanks for your time!

kaik

Here’s some photos. Thanks again everyone!

kaik

I should also add, there’s 7 radiators running along the same wall. 2 of the 7 are pitched so the condensate slopes (downhill) back into the condensate line. The other ones have an uphill climb back into the condensate line. I’ve attached a picture of the radiator that doesn’t make any waterhammer and is heating evenly.

KC_Jones

All the ones with condensate lines going up are completely wrong and show the contractor doing the work is clueless. I bet that hammers, wow.

The one that works is pretty obvious why, well obvious to someone who knows.

Tell the landlord every one of those things needs repipe, nothing else will solve the problem.

I also don’t see how the radiators with the side by side connections will ever work on steam. If memory serves most of those (on hot water), had a dip tube to create circulation to the opposite end. To my knowledge this is eliminated once the original valves are changed and I doubt it would work with steam. I’m sure other will chime in on that one to elaborate or correct me.

gennady

That’s completely wrong. Radiator is flooded and steam traps cannot operate as intended. Radiator must be raised above return lines, or return lines must be brought down.

kaik

Ok thanks so much for your response. I figured so (regarding the condensate). Would putting the rads on cement blocks and repiping so the condensate flows into the condensate line downwards solve these issues? I was the one that purchased the rads by the way. I was told by a steam contractor in Toronto that hot water and steam rads are basically interchangeable and honestly had no idea what I was doing, was just was desperate for the landlord to install some sort of heat source so I offered to purchase the rads. Knew something was off by the 2nd heating cycle when the rads were flooded. I’m a commercial tenant and just need proper heat at this point since it’s getting so cold out here in Montreal. The water hammer is brutal...

kaik

> @gennady said:
> That’s completely wrong. Radiator is flooded and steam traps cannot operate as intended. Radiator must be raised above return lines, or return lines must be brought down.
> (Image)

Thank you. If this is left like this, I’m assuming the waterhammer could break the pipes or the rads? Flooding?

gennady

I don’t think it will break anything in your case.
You can raise radiator and reconfigure piping the right way.

kaik

Okay thank you, I’ll pass along this information to LL. KC_Jones mentioned that the ones with side by side connections might not work. Care to elaborate on that? Or should they also work if they’re raised up or the condensate line is lowered?

My concern about the hammer is all that cold water left sitting in the bottom of the rads. When the boiler kicks in and the steam hits it, it’s pretty violent. So much so, one of the rads was rocking back and forth. Should I turn the ones that aren’t piped correctly and hammering down to 0 at the thermostat for now until I can get someone in here?

gennady

There is always water at the bottom of radiators.
Regarding 2 openings on the same side, I don’t think it is a big problem. Condensate will drain into return and keep water in the radiator at minimum. Keep in mind, steam in the radiator immediately shoots up, and condensate flows down on the walls.

acwagner

Since the contractor messed up this obvious detail, you probably need to check everything they did. Steam systems require specific pipe sizes, pitches, and configurations system-wide to work properly. This is probably just one incorrectly done component of many on the system.

kaik

> @gennady said:
> There is always water at the bottom of radiators.
> Regarding 2 openings on the same side, I don’t think it is a big problem. Condensate will drain into return and keep water in the radiator at minimum. Keep in mind, steam in the radiator immediately shoots up, and condensate flows down on the walls.

Okay great thank you. @gennady / @acwagner one more question for you guys. These radiators don’t have any air vents. The existing bleed valves near the top of the rads have just been screwed shut. Are air vents only exclusive to 1 pipe systems or do these need to be tapped and vented too? Just want to make sure the contractors get it right this time around and I pass all legitimate info to LL so this company doesn’t screw them anymore. I’ve attached full photos of every radiator in the space for you guys so if you see any other problems, if you could please point them out that would be greatly appreciated!

KC_Jones

As long as the mains and/or dry returns are vented properly in support of a 2 pipe system you don’t want vents on the radiators.

The entire system is 2 pipe correct? Or is it one pipe that you are adding 2 pipe to? Remember no matter what this is a system across the entire building and always needs to be treated as such.

kaik

> @KC_Jones said:
> As long as the mains and/or dry returns are vented properly in support of a 2 pipe system you don’t want vents on the radiators.
>
> The entire system is 2 pipe correct? Or is it one pipe that you are adding 2 pipe to? Remember no matter what this is a system across the entire building and always needs to be treated as such.

I’m honestly not sure since this is the only unit I have access to. All I know is it’s impossible to get any sleep in this place with the current situation. Sounds like 100 people playing ping pong with ball bearings every time the heat kicks on and it goes on for hours. When I’m not listening to that, I’m listening to the radiators glugging, sloshing and wooshing. Thank you guys. You’ve been very helpful. Much appreciated. Hopefully they’ll get it fixed and installed properly soon.

KC_Jones

You need to know what the building is before anyone can really say if this can me made to work properly. We can advise on the issues in your unit, but can’t say with 100% certainty if it will properly work without knowing what the system is.

You obviously have a none expert doing that piping, I would advise that person not be allowed back and you find an actual steam expert to do this work.

I may have missed it, but where are you located? We may know someone competent in your area.

kaik

> @KC_Jones said:
> You need to know what the building is before anyone can really say if this can me made to work properly. We can advise on the issues in your unit, but can’t say with 100% certainty if it will properly work without knowing what the system is.
>
> You obviously have a none expert doing that piping, I would advise that person not be allowed back and you find an actual steam expert to do this work.
>
> I may have missed it, but where are you located? We may know someone competent in your area.

Will pass this along. Located in Montréal.

gennady

Air is removed from radiator through steam trap. There must be a way to release air from the system after steam traps.
Water must be drained from radiator without creating hydro locks.
I agree that person, who created that piping Quasimodo, should not be allowed near steam system.
Also, thermostatic radiator valve must be installed according manual. I see on photo trv installed upright. That’s wrong, sensor will pick up heat and shut off steam supply to radiator prematurely.