Closed cell spray foam and insects

Jon951

Been hearing a number of horror stories regarding infestation of closed cell spray foam by termites and carpenter ants in the New York State Adirondack area. I am weeks from insulation a new build which I was planning to have foamed but now I' thinking twice. Curious if anyone has experienced or hear of anything along these lines.

Jamie Hall

Carpenter ants will eat -- and usually live in -- damp wood. They, like termites, also like to have wood buried near the house -- such as from a new build which wasn't cleaned up properly (every scrap of wood taken away before grading!). Termites, of course, tunnel in wood. Both of them may tunnel in foamed insulation (any sort), but they don't eat it.

Carpenter ants may well be a problem in the Adirondacks. Best solution is -- as I say -- clean up of new builds and making sure the wood is dry and stays that way.. They may tunnel in the insulation (fiberglass is much worse) but don't live there. Termites, not so much in the Adirondacks -- too cold.

ChrisJ

I'm getting ready to insulate walls in a downstairs bathroom and am shying away from spray foam. Simply because it seems like it's a nightmare if you ever want to change anything.

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

I'm getting ready to insulate walls in a downstairs bathroom and am shying away from spray foam. Simply because it seems like it's a nightmare if you ever want to change anything.

Right you are with that, @ChrisJ ! Ask me how I know... dense pack cellulose?

woobagooba

The new build, what is the wall structure (outside to inside)?

JakeCK

I second dense pack cellulose. It is recycled newspaper, is fireproof, and because of it's fire retardant has insect and rodent resistance too. Bugs really don't like the borates.

Personally closed cell foam should really only be used when other options won't work. Unvented vaulted ceilings, and any where else a vapor barrier is needed.

Jon951

Build is cement board over Zip system...have done the cellulose but not a big fan due to settlement over time in non assessible post build areas. 2x12 roof framing, 2x6 exterior walls SPF framing material.

JakeCK

Settlement only happens if the installer doesn't use sufficient pressure. Another option is to have a couple inch layer of closed cell and then dense pack the remaining depth. If you go full depth with dense pack one will have to take into account sheathing temperature. Foam board on the exterior of the sheathing under the exterior finish.

JakeCK

https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-controlling-cold-weather-condensation-using-insulation

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

ChrisJ said:

I'm getting ready to insulate walls in a downstairs bathroom and am shying away from spray foam. Simply because it seems like it's a nightmare if you ever want to change anything.

Right you are with that, @ChrisJ ! Ask me how I know... dense pack cellulose?

In new construction maybe.
In my house with no sheathing and just clapboard, I'd say that's probably a really bad idea.

The Steam Whisperer

My preference is for dense pack fiberglass. There are lots of stories of treated cellulose becoming flammable over time. It's likely the dry treated cellulose rather than the wet treated that has the problems...The borate settles out over time. I think Maine or Mass. has regular home inspections and it was found that about 90% of older cellulose had become flammable. Fireman that I have worked with hate cellulose, since it smolders and causes fires to flare up multiple times after being extinguished.
In addition, I believe the borate is corrosive to steel and other metals... so you end up with rotted conduit and water lines.

JakeCK

The Steam Whisperer said:

My preference is for dense pack fiberglass. There are lots of stories of treated cellulose becoming flammable over time. It's likely the dry treated cellulose rather than the wet treated that has the problems...The borate settles out over time. I think Maine or Mass. has regular home inspections and it was found that about 90% of older cellulose had become flammable. Fireman that I have worked with hate cellulose, since it smolders and causes fires to flare up multiple times after being extinguished.
In addition, I believe the borate is corrosive to steel and other metals... so you end up with rotted conduit and water lines.

Do you have any sources for this?

Jamie Hall

On your house, @ChrisJ , sounds like you have much the same sort of situation as Cedric's home -- except that there is sheathing under the clapboards, and asbestos (!) shingles over that. So the walls are, from the outside, asbestos shingles, clapboards, sheathing (true 1 inch), a true 4 inch air space, then plaster on wooden lath (total about 1 1/2). I've never evaluated the R factor for that... lazy, I guess. But actually, overall, it's not too bad. Not up to modern standards, and I'm sure that if I could figure a reliable way to get insulation in there without damaging the plaster or the wallpapers (no mean trick, that) it would help. But the overall R value of the entire building, including the roof and infiltration and an amazing amount of glass for its age, back calculates based on fuel use and degree days to be a bit better than 4.5. So the walls can't be too shabby.

The Steam Whisperer

JakeCK It's been many years since I read the reports. I would look into data collected by (IMRC) either Maine or Mass. because this was the primary source that I remember regarding potential problems with old cellulose becoming flammable.

Docfletcher

ACH Technologies may be an option... When used in conjunction with a total insect-management program.

https://www.achfoam.com/Insulation/Termite-Resistant-EPS/Perform-Guard®-Performance.aspx

JakeCK

> @The Steam Whisperer said:
> JakeCK It's been many years since I read the reports. I would look into data collected by (IMRC) either Maine or Mass. because this was the primary source that I remember regarding potential problems with old cellulose becoming flammable.

I wasn't trying to suggest you were lying, I was only asking for sources so I could read it my self, I've never heard that before so am curious about it.

On another note I'm not really able to find anything about that issue.

The Steam Whisperer

Hey I typed this into my search engine and it brought up quite a bit of info......

old cellulose insulation becoming flammable

Zman

Closed cell foam forms a vapor barrier. I suspect that most insect issues involve an incorrect installation which traps moisture between 2 vapor barriers. The water can come from an exterior leak or can condense on the inside face of the foam if insulation thickness and dew point is not considered.

psb75

I take issue with the term "old cellulose." Are you referring to early versions of cellulose insulation that was insufficiently "borate treated"--as in "dusted with loose borax powder"--that could settle out eventually? I don't believe this to be the case with later and current versions of borated cellulose insulation. I'm assuming the fibers have absorbed sufficient amounts of borates in solution, to be properly fireproofed and inhibiting of insects and rodents.
FIBERGLASS insulation (in my opinion) should be OUTLAWED. In my estimation only two or types of "critters" love it: uninformed humans...and rodents. They love it because its warm to live in AND they can "structure" it i.e. tunnel and nest in it--unlike cellulose. Anecdotally, I've torn out too many versions of "infested" fiberglass to ever want to recommend or use it again. Air moves through fiberglass and it ends up being a "filter"--I've seen plenty of "blackened" fiberglass in stud cavities.
Insects and rodents don't like, can't live in, and won't inhabit properly borated cellulose insulation.
Dense-pack cellulose is superior.

ChrisJ

> @psb75 said:
> I take issue with the term "old cellulose." Are you referring to early versions of cellulose insulation that was insufficiently "borate treated"--as in "dusted with loose borax powder"--that could settle out eventually? I don't believe this to be the case with later and current versions of borated cellulose insulation. I'm assuming the fibers have absorbed sufficient amounts of borates in solution, to be properly fireproofed and inhibiting of insects and rodents.
> FIBERGLASS insulation (in my opinion) should be OUTLAWED. In my estimation only two or types of "critters" love it: uninformed humans...and rodents. They love it because its warm to live in AND they can "structure" it i.e. tunnel and nest in it--unlike cellulose. Anecdotally, I've torn out too many versions of "infested" fiberglass to ever want to recommend or use it again. Air moves through fiberglass and it ends up being a "filter"--I've seen plenty of "blackened" fiberglass in stud cavities.
> Insects and rodents don't like, can't live in, and won't inhabit properly borated cellulose insulation.
> Dense-pack cellulose is superior.

Is moisture an issue with it?

psb75

Moisture as an "issue":
Moisture in insulation is always an issue. (It renders fiberglass basically worthless.)
The "issue" is quite complex.
Here is a very quick beginning from Joe Lstiburek--an expert.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xPhE1xXEnw

ChrisJ

> @psb75 said:
> Moisture as an "issue":
> Moisture in insulation is always an issue. (It renders fiberglass basically worthless.)
> The "issue" is quite complex.
> Here is a very quick beginning from Joe Lstiburek--an expert.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xPhE1xXEnw

Yes,
However in my situation fiberglass doesn't retain the moisture.

psb75

Rodents?

ChrisJ

> @psb75 said:
> Rodents?

It's the buildings job to keep rodents out, not insulation.

psb75

Agreed. But there is a plus side to having the building not be accommodating to them. And if I may be allowed to say, they will find a way. They always have.

nibs

A note about sprayed on cavity insulation. If the installer puts the foam on too thickly, the surface layer will seal up and block the outgassing from the inner layer, the result is that outgassing will continue and will enter the living space, in some cases releasing formaldehyde and sometimes severely affecting the residents health.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I've been in plenty of attics in my line of work. And I've seen tunnels in both fiberglass and cellulose. I agree with @ChrisJ that it's the building's job to keep rodents our. And one must pay very careful attention to every single detail to keep them out.

I've spent many hours tracking down entry points and trapping. I've gone so far as live trapping to study how high a mouse can jump and what they can and can't climb.

Any kind of wood (painted or otherwise) is easily climbed, vinyl siding is climber with some difficulty (new), vinyl corners are easily climbed, black polyethylene pile (1") is easily climbed, copper is not climb able, pex is easily climbed, metal siding is not climb able. A common field mouse was the test subject (many in fact, they met their demise) can also jump 14". These are not kangaroo mice, just the white bellied pink eared ones.

The Steam Whisperer

pdb75 Reread my post..... I referred specifically to the problem you mentioned with old cellulose. As regards to air leakage, I suspect dense pack fiberglass is also quite a good air barrier, which is what I stated in my post.... not traditional batts and blankets.

Zman

My experience has been that rodents find an area where they can detect warm air leaving the building to determine a good entry point. They then work to enlarge the hole, if needed in order to gain entry. The first line of defense against rodents is a tight building envelope. Closed cell foam is a great way to achieve this.

Jamie Hall

But they're so cute! The little field mice, I mean. And besides, my cat likes them...

The only real problem I have with closed cell foam is... well, two. First, it's not reversible, so there are some real problems with using it in historic preservation (it's sometimes, but not always, permissible). The other is more general: most of the installers I've talked to aren't able to guarantee that it won't break the interior plaster keys and force the plaster off the wall as it is expanding. This makes it a no-go from some of what I encounter.

ChrisJ

> @Jamie Hall said:
> But they're so cute! The little field mice, I mean. And besides, my cat likes them...
>
> The only real problem I have with closed cell foam is... well, two. First, it's not reversible, so there are some real problems with using it in historic preservation (it's sometimes, but not always, permissible). The other is more general: most of the installers I've talked to aren't able to guarantee that it won't break the interior plaster keys and force the plaster off the wall as it is expanding. This makes it a no-go from some of what I encounter.

I'd expect it to glue it self to the plaster and make it stronger if anything.......

Fred

ChrisJ said:

> @Jamie Hall said:

> But they're so cute! The little field mice, I mean. And besides, my cat likes them...

>

> The only real problem I have with closed cell foam is... well, two. First, it's not reversible, so there are some real problems with using it in historic preservation (it's sometimes, but not always, permissible). The other is more general: most of the installers I've talked to aren't able to guarantee that it won't break the interior plaster keys and force the plaster off the wall as it is expanding. This makes it a no-go from some of what I encounter.



I'd expect it to glue it self to the plaster and make it stronger if anything.......

Not if it pops your wood lathe off of the studs as it expands.

ChrisJ

> @Fred said:
> (Quote)
> Not if it pops your wood lathe off of the studs as it expands.

It'll still hold all of it.

Just not flat.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

> @Fred said:

> (Quote)

> Not if it pops your wood lathe off of the studs as it expands.



It'll still hold all of it.



Just not flat.

Solid_Fuel_Man

For a retrofit wall cavity blown in dense pack works well. There really isnt a great way to tell if you got ty he entire wall cavity (as some balloon framed structures have corner braces and strange "fire blocks") but it's great at filling the cavity you can get the hose into.

It's one thing which would drive me insane with an old house. I grew up in what an old girlfriend called "a Norman Rockwell painting house". Beautiful home, but hot in the summer and cold in the winter. Grew up burning 10 cord of wood and at least 3 tanks of oil. And we still froze. I'm not kidding when I can say that you could tell how cold it was outside by how high up the frost was on the inside of the window, and that's with storms on!

JakeCK

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

For a retrofit wall cavity blown in dense pack works well. There really isnt a great way to tell if you got ty he entire wall cavity (as some balloon framed structures have corner braces and strange "fire blocks") but it's great at filling the cavity you can get the hose into.



It's one thing which would drive me insane with an old house. I grew up in what an old girlfriend called "a Norman Rockwell painting house". Beautiful home, but hot in the summer and cold in the winter. Grew up burning 10 cord of wood and at least 3 tanks of oil. And we still froze. I'm not kidding when I can say that you could tell how cold it was outside by how high up the frost was on the inside of the window, and that's with storms on!

My mother used wood as primary heat for the house growing up... Still to this day I shudder when ever someone talks about the ambiance of a wood burning fireplace. I hated the mess it made, the waking up early before school to stoke it, the chopping wood, and the carrying it in during the coldest hours of the night, and everything else about it. I have a wood fireplace in my house that I promptly installed a gas log set into. I turn a knob and get all the ambiance I want or need.

And if its really cold I crank the tstat up and enjoy the heat rolling off my big ol' radiators. Is it just me or has anyone else noticed the colder it gets the better these old radiant systems work? lol

Solid_Fuel_Man

Well we have MUCH better wood burning appliances than open fireplaces now. I heat 3200 square feet and DHW with 100% wood. 3 cord last year in northern Maine. Fuel is brought in in the fall, boiler room is nice and warm, I load a single fire a day in my slippers.

JakeCK

We would only go through a little over a cord of wood, granted the house I think was only a 1100 or 1200sq ft greek revival, but somebody had to split the wood and haul it in and guess whos job that was. The only chore I hated more was shoveling the 200+ ft long driveway. And we used one of those inserts with a blower on the bottom of it.

Jamie Hall

When I was 30 plus years younger than I am now, the house I lived in was mostly wood heat (and used a lot of it -- central Vermont, house built before 1800... just a tad draughty) and I enjoyed it. I'm 30 plus years older now, and the very thought appalls me.

Solid_Fuel_Man

My first winter in my own house, that i planned to burn wood in. I bought a splitting maul, I split maybe 1/2 a cord when I was looking in the local classifieds for a splitter. That homemade thing worked but was just old parts someone had laying around. I sold it when I bought a used factory made splitter. Much faster and unstoppable at 31tons (rated). Uses about 1/3 of a gallon of gas to split a cord.

ChrisJ

> @Solid_Fuel_Man said:
> My first winter in my own house, that i planned to burn wood in. I bought a splitting maul, I split maybe 1/2 a cord when I was looking in the local classifieds for a splitter. That homemade thing worked but was just old parts someone had laying around. I sold it when I bought a used factory made splitter. Much faster and unstoppable at 31tons (rated). Uses about 1/3 of a gallon of gas to split a cord.
>

My boss made a splitter that also picked the logs up for you. It was powered by a Honda v twin.


Sadly I believe someone borrowed it and somehow damaged it.