System 2000 heat going to heating zone when hot water zone is calling for heat

jkupiec

Hi all. I have a System2000 model EK-1f. I noticed a while back that when the hot water zone is calling for heat, looking at the control panel light, the hot water and zone 1 heat output lights come on and heat is actually thrown to zone 1 also. The reason I noticed this is I got heat in the zone 1 rooms in the middle of summer. I removed the thrermostat that controls zone 1 to make sure it was not a thermostat issue in zone 1. I have 4 heating zones total. Even worse, after the hot water zone light turns off and the hot water tank is fully satisfied from a temperature standpoint, that zones output light goes off but the zone 1 output light stays on and continues to dump heat into zone one until all the heat is dumped from the boiler. Is this normal that zone one becomes the final dumping point of heat. A picture of the System2000 controller panel is attached.

Thanks ahead for your help

HVACNUT

The zone 1 zone valve is getting 24v from the Manager so its always open allowing heat to circulate on a domestic call. Check the lever on the zone valve. It probably moves freely when is shouldn't without a heat demand. The issue is in the controls behind the Manager. You'll need a pro but in the meantime you can remove the wire at the #1 terminal on the right side of the Manager. That will close the zone valve until the repair is done.

jkupiec

Thanks HVACNUT, I did what you said and it makes sense. My pro is coming in two weeks to clean my boiler. Do you think the problem is with my zone valve. I don't have the thermostat connected.

Joe

jkupiec

Or could the problem be with the system 2000 control card. My boiler is about 10 years old.

szwedj

If when you disconnected the wire to the zone valve on Z1 terminal, the zone 1 output light on the right went out, it’s most likely a bad zone valve motor. If the output stayed on with the zone valve disconnected it’s most likely a bad output on the system manager. All this assuming you still have the thermostat disconnected on the left side terminal T1.

jkupiec

Happen to check to the boiler when the hot water tank was calling for heat. After the tank was satisfied the zone #1 light was still on. I took off the wire on Z1, before hot water tank called for heat. The Z1 light stayed after the lights went out for the hot water zone. The circulator pump is still running but now the zone #1 is zone valve is closed. Will this hurt the circulator pump as all the zones are closed. See the picture below to see the lights.

jkupiec

Yes the thermstat was removed on T1

HVACNUT

No it wont hurt the circulator. It actually runs that way at the start of almost every cycle. Theres a 1/2" bypass pipe going into the back of the boiler. After a heat or hot water demand ends, the circulator will continue to run for a preset time, as set by the dip switches.
So the problem is in the Manager or a control relay behind it.

szwedj

If you look at the picture, it looks like it's doing a normal post purge to zone one. The boiler is still fairly hot and the system circ is running. If you reset power using the system switch on the left, as long as there are no heat calls the outputs on the right should go out.

jkupiec

Thanks to both of you. Does the hot water zone normally purge to the hot water tank after the tank temperature has been satisfied. BTW this whole cycle described above happens ever time I see the hot water zone calling for heat. I just disconnected the right side zone 1 wire be note above so heat does not get sent to zone 1 right now as its summer.

szwedj

Yes, the system will post purge to the hot water tank for a maximum of 5 minutes. Heating zones can post purge for up to 20 minutes. BTW, does your system have a plate heat exchanger for the domestic hot water? The reason I ask is based on the first picture you posted, the domestic side of the plate may need to be back flushed. You can see during the hot water call, the return temp climbed enough to shut the burner off. That is typical of a flow restriction on the domestic side of the plate. You might want to have your service tech check it out.

Roger

Thank you for your comments and posts.

Here is a link to manager diagnostics:
https://energykinetics.com/digital-manager-heating-professional/

The output light on as you describe (not when actively heating or purging) is often caused from a short in that output. It could be from crossed wires or a failed zone valve. The diagnostic shows how to test by removing the output quick connector.

If you only had 3 heating zones, you could have moved the zone valve and thermostat to an unused zone.
If it turns out that the manager output is damaged, you will be eligible for a core return credit - see replacement manager costs here:
https://energykinetics.com/system2000-parts-trade-list-price/

I would suggest waiting for your heat pro to test the zone valve, wiring, and output.

Best,
Roger

br2kxl

Wanted to continue this thread, I also have a system 2000 that is bringing heat through the baseboards when there is a demand for hot water. I don't have any of the lights coming on in the heating zones though, just the hot water lights. 3 zones, with two of the pipes hot, seems to be passing through the radiator on one zone. Heating person came and told us to change out the two nest thermostats that were effecting the two zones, the zone that wasn't effected didn't have nest. Changed the nests, but still seem to have problems, any ideas ?

SuperTech

@br2kxl hope you changed the Nests to any other thermostat. The first thing you want to look at is the zone valves for that zone. Does the lever on the valve move back and forth freely? Check the way it operates and compare it to the other zone valves that are working. You also need to see what the energy manager is doing while the malfunction is happening. Take pictures if possible. There is a lot good information on how to resolve this problem in this thread.

br2kxl

I take it you are not a big fan of the nest. I will take a picture, the heating person did check the zone valves, said they were fine.

SuperTech

I'm not a big fan of using them on boilers. They can be problematic. Issues with the thermostat or energy manager should be able to be figured out with the lights on the manager

szwedj

@br2kxl Most likely you have a zone valve not holding allowing hot water out to the baseboard in that zone.

Roger

Thank you for your question and comments, @br2kxl and @SuperTech .

As @SuperTech noted, it is most likely Nest issues.

An easy way to check is to disconnect the Nest thermostat(s) and see if the problem goes away after a day or two.

You can also observe intermittent calls on the manager thermostat lights for the Nest zones inputs, and sometimes the zone light outputs. This is due to the thermostat drawing so much power it acts like a thermostat call. For reference, newly installed Nest thermostats may need up to an hour to charge before they have enough base power to operate.

For reference, part way down this page has instructions with several ways to properly wire a Nest thermostat. Years ago, we modified our Energy Manager specifically for Nest power "sharing" (stealing) operation, and then Nest changed the design and we needed to make another change a few years ago. So depending on the age of the manager, it may or may not be compatible without using these wiring instructions.

If you still suspect zone valves bypassing, run a test when the boiler and zones have been off for a while and the entire system is "cold" - make sure all Nest thermostats are un-wired. Run hot water until the hot water thermostat light comes on to re-heat the tank (or turn up a thermostat on a properly functioning zone). During heat up (the boiler will be hot after about 2 minutes), carefully check to see if the pipes a foot or so after the zone valves are hot. Use caution as the pipes could be very hot. Heat will migrate or flow through any zones that are not properly closed. If there is no flow, the pipe will remain unheated downstream of the zone valve; if you are unsure, feel the pipe farther downstream. If there is flow, it could be a manually opened zone valve lever, debris letting water flow past, or an otherwise failed zone valve (although if the motor fails, the zone valve usually fails closed). If there are manual shut off valves on the affected zones and heat is not needed in warmer weather, the valves may be temporarily closed - just make sure to repair and open the zones up before heat is needed.

Best,
Roger

HVACNUT

I would label and disconnect the thermostat wiring for the Nests on the left side of the Manager. Don't just remove the face of the Nest, as the sub bases have been known to short as well.
Had one at the home of former NHL player Alexi Yashin. I told him we could use the Nest for Shinny in the foyer. Carol laughed.

smithbm33

Does anyone know the outcome of the original post from the discussion? I have more or less the same issue happening, but on Zone 2 instead of Zone 1. I have disconnected all the thermostat connections on the left, except hot water and then disconnected all the zones from the right side. Still Zone 2 is lighting up and the circulator is being called.

I disconnected the right hand output using the quick connect and turned on the service switch and still Zone 2 lights up with the circulator.

Is this a bad digital manager?

smithbm33

Here is a picture of the digital manager

szwedj

Smithbm33, If you reset the power using the system switch on the left after removing the right side quick connector and those output lights came back on, it’s pretty safe to say something has happened to your System Manager.  The burner light should never be on unless there is a call for heat on the left. 

smithbm33

Thank you @szwedj... yes, that is what was occurring. I powered down the entire system via the main circuit panel and re-wired everything, but moved the Zone 2 thermostat and valve to T4 and Z4. I then powered everything back on and did had all thermostats and hot water call for heat at the same time...

Zone 2 did light up for a little while, while the other zones were circulating, but then turned off and has stayed off ever since. Almost as if the system manager was stuck in some kind of loop.

Good news is that the system is now working as expected - but I am concerned that the system manager may yet fail again. Will have to just continue to monitor it.

Question - does anyone know if I can purchase the digital system manager directly from EK - or do I need to go through a professional to do this?

szwedj

@smithbm33 Glad to hear everything is working.  Keep an eye on things and if you see anything strange with the manager again, take pictures or even a video of it.   As a rule we only sell parts to heating professionals.  When you get a chance email me at jszwed@energykinetics.com,  I would like to send you some information for future reference.

KyleO

Good thread with lots of info and even the head of Energy Kinetics, thanks all. 
My System 2K EK-1F is less than 3 years old, but I'm getting heat to zone 2 when zone 1 (downstairs) is called. So zone 2 (upstairs) is so hot that the thermostat never calls for heat. Is there anything I can do from my end to fix this? If it's a bad zone valve "leaking" heat to another zone, how do I fix this?
Thanks in advance 

STEVEusaPA

You should start you’re own thread.
Could be the manager, could be a failing zone valve or it could just be a short in some low voltage wiring.
It could also be a problem with the thermostat. First simple step you could try would be to power down the system, and replace the batteries in the thermostat.

szwedj

@KyleO Two common causes we see when a zone is over heating are power stealing thermostats (think Nest) or a bad zone valve.  These days it’s very common that a tech will get called out for an over heating zone only to find that a homeowner has installed a Nest thermostat.  You can try disconnecting the thermostat for the over heating zone and see if that helps.  If it does, there typically are a few ways to make it work. If it still overheats there are other things to check out as @STEVEusaPA mentioned.  

KyleO

Thanks guys. I do have Nest thermostats, but I've had the same ones for years, since we installed the System 2K less than 3 years ago (by Marran directly). I haven't made any changes and there's no batteries involved. Maybe there was a software update that is causing power to be stolen? 
I'll try rebooting the whole system, in the morning, and if that fails I'll start a new thread like it was mentioned.
Thanks again, you guys are great

KyleO

Roger helped me figure it out, I either had a "stuck" zone valve (in the open position, likely due to the spring not on there correctly), or had debris in the line (where manually opening it and pushing water through might have unclogged it). System seems to be functioning normally now. Thanks group!

smithbm33

hi @szwedj after 4 years of running normal - the same issue has come back. Zone 2, which is not connected to any thermostat or a valve control is again requesting burner and circulation... Looks like I will need to have a Tech come out and replace the Digital Manager. I have tried to disconnect everything and still get the manager calling zone 2 on the output side?

Here is the picture:

szwedj

Good Morning @smithbm33 It definitely appears like something is awry. Basically the burner light should never be on unless there is a call for heat on the left which is normally indicated by the corresponding LED for that zone being lit up (the typical exception is when a power stealing thermostat is installed on that zone and it is charging). But in this case you have indicated that there isn't even a thermostat connected to zone input T2 (which is the third terminal down on the quick connecter). So under those circumstances what we are seeing in your picture is something I do not have an explanation for other then the manager does appear to have some sort of internal issue. If you cycle the system power using the switch on the left side of the junction box, the first thing should happen is the manager does a self-test where it cycles all the output lights on the right hand side on and back off, it will also reset all the system timers so if there isn't any thermostats calling, all those lights that are on in your picture should go out, so if they came right back on or you did not see the outputs cycle during the self-test that would indicate something has happened to the manager and it should be replaced. Feel free to email me at jszwed@energykinetics.com with any questions.

Joe

smithbm33

Thanks @szwedj - I'll reach out via email.