Install Low Loss Header Here? Discuss.

JohnNY

As per spec, I have to install a 2-½” LLH here in the last of the empty wall space.
See pic please.
Then I have to pipe these four (4) 300MBH boilers into it. I have no room. None. Zero.
Don’t tell me to ask the GC/client/Engineer/Virgin Mary/anyone at all for more space. It’s not going to happen.
If I could turn a low loss header on its side I might have a shot. Of course I’ll be eliminating its ability to vent air automatically but I may be able to weld a new top air vent into it or something. Same for dirt separation.
Keep in mind I’ve got 6 pumps to fit into here and a boatload of piping and controls.

My question to you is: do you know of a horizontal low loss header or a standard LLH that may do the job mounted horizontally?

If not, then I’m going to have to propose we eliminate it in favor of closely spaced tees and some additional pipe work... for which there is no room either.

Ugh. I shoulda went to Chiropractor school.

JohnNY

I’m tempted to retrofit something like this. Stop laughing. I’m desperate.

pecmsg

What size pipe are you considering for the header?
How many takeoffs and what size?

pecmsg

48"

Talk about 6# of $(&t in a 5# box!

Intplm.

This sort of stuff is enough to tick off a nun.
Is it possible to custom build one on the wall space, "U" shaped around the room at the bottom hugging the wall. Or split "U" or double "L" installed on the left and right?

Did a "L" shaped one years ago. Had little to no room like your situation. Got the idea from electrical wire troughs that hold a lot of wire installed in similar installations.

There is a european company that might help.
"Vaillant Cascade Rig Assembly?" Maybe look them up to help with some ideas.

Intplm.

pecmsg said:

48"

Talk about 6# of $(&t in a 5# box!

Might be more like 10# in a 5# bag.

ScottSecor

How about a 2-1/2" Caleffi hydraulic separator with short fat headers off each side?

hot_rod

what is the dimension of that space, are the studs on 16" OC" to get an idea?

Maybe ell down from the sep to the floor, bring boiler piping into those verticals down below the sep.

Be interesting to see what you come up with.

Tinman

Thinking outside the box -> 2 x 6 framed floor for most of the near boiler piping with a sheet of 3/4" plywood that's easily removed?

Robert O'Brien

Maybe something like these?

Tinman

And closely spaced tees will solve the P/S issue with an an air separator taking up a fraction of the space. And if it were me, I would definitely consider the option I offered above for mostly just copper pipe. They’ve put you in a bad spot. I’d be pissed if anyone gave me that room for 4 boilers.

Zman

I think the piping tying the boilers together will need to be unconventional because all of it needs to stay really low and under the boilers when possible. If the Low loss goes low, and to one side, you may be able to wind back and forth up the wall and make it all work.
Either ask the Pope for more room or go to Barber College

EBEBRATT-Ed

I agree with @Intplm.

I would try making a "U" shaped header mounted vertically on that wall space. Maybe you can fit the two system pumps over the top of the boilers. That would give you some (I hate to say room) to put the boiler pumps under the boilers and get the controls in.

You might mock one up with 2 1/2 copper fittings and see if it will work $$$ but you can return the fittings if you change your mind or it doesn't work. Sweat instead of PP will take up less room.

Long shot: Is there an adjacent space in another room for the header? You could pipe the boilers through the wall to it.

Tinman

Ok, you don’t like the floor idea. What about the ceiling area, everything above the boilers toward the center of the room?

JohnNY

Robert O'Brien said:

Maybe something like these?

Yes. I saw that and I love it but it's only sized to handle like 100,000 MBH or something.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I'd tell those chuckleheads that the building only needs two boilers.... problem solved!

Sorry I have no real solutions, but man oh man do i hate chuckleheaded architects who pull stuff like this on us. If i have to work on one more AHU stuffed above a boiler in a mechanical room I'm gonna blow a gasket!

JohnNY

pecmsg said:

What size pipe are you considering for the header?
How many takeoffs and what size?

I need 2.5" to handle the load. Two heat exchangers will come off this piping. The system pumps are 7 floors below this.

Mind you this is a single family residence.

Steve Minnich said:

Ok, you don’t like the floor idea. What about the ceiling area, everything above the boilers toward the center of the room?

That will all be used. Yes. My guys are making trapezes. The flues are up there though so my headspace is limited.

Intplm. said:

Is it possible to custom build one on the wall space, "U" shaped around the room at the bottom hugging the wall. Or split "U" or double "L" installed on the left and right?
There is a european company that might help.
"Vaillant Cascade Rig Assembly?" Maybe look them up to help with some ideas.
I'll look at Vaillant. I've seen some of their boilers. The trough idea is very interesting. I'm going to play round with that. Thank you.

Steve Minnich said:

Thinking outside the box -> 2 x 6 framed floor for most of the near boiler piping with a sheet of 3/4" plywood that's easily removed?

Also interesting. Thank you.

hot_rod said:

what is the dimension of that space, are the studs on 16" OC" to get an idea?
Maybe ell down from the sep to the floor, bring boiler piping into those verticals down below the sep.

Bob, what you've drawn is what I've drawn which is what seems to be the simplest design. Part of the problem here is that NYC requires a low water cutoff above each boiler, and at the "inspector's discretion" they may insist I pipe up to toward the ceiling first. Viessmann knows this and includes it in their US I&O manual:

So, I'm still poking at this.

Harvey Ramer

Might have to start thinking in 3d instead of 2d.
It takes careful planning to retain serviceability, but you can build out multiple layers of piping using additional strut frames. Kind of like a multilayered cake.

The biggest kicker is to make sure you can still access and service all the components.

Ironman

How about something like this? You can modify the layout of the manifold piping to fit your job.


The LLH could go in the middle.

hot_rod

I like the sep on it's side best. The mesh inside will still remove air efficiently, saddle the 3/4 high capacity air vent in the middle.

The screen inside is stainless steel, so a guy, or gal, could weld a port into the center I suppose. I'd add a center bottom port to flush magnetic and dirt particles out.

Can LWCs be installed on a riser next to the boiler, air vent above it?

We did build a horizontal sep as a prototype for a boiler manufacturer.

gtm

John, solution is right in front of you. Come on. I think you just teasing. And I'm not kidding you. Look closely at the Viessmann racks design for multiple boilers. Solution is right there. I'm not saying you should install racks, you have no room for them. just look at them and ask yourself right question. Cheers.

I'm sure my comment will be deleted by administration.
They banned me before.

Tinman

@JohnNY - What did you decide?

Tom_133

And send pics when you can, its going to be tight but I am sure you guys will make it nice.

Larry Weingarten

Hello, It's likely a topic for a different thread, but at what point does the contractor tell a client that they simply have not allowed enough room to do a decent job? If I wasn't given space to install a system that can be adequately maintained, I'd try to change the conditions and if unsuccessful, would wave goodby. I'm no fan of jumping through other people's hoops.

Yours, Larry

JohnNY

Larry Weingarten said:

If I wasn't given space to install a system that can be adequately maintained, I'd try to change the conditions and if unsuccessful, would wave goodby. I'm no fan of jumping through other people's hoops.

I love comments like that on this forum.

That's a great position to take when you can, Larry, but where I work the costs and property values make for a very different set of conditions. Maybe everyone thinks that of their market but in Manhattan, it truly is different.

I just finished a job 3 blocks from this one with a slightly larger boiler room but we fit 3 Viessmann boilers in it with a 3" low loss header. It's something close to unserviceable but we get it done however we can. That home took us two years to complete (plumbing, fire sprinkler, hydronic heating) and our contract alone as plumbers was close to two million dollars, and we didn't buy a single fixture. The house cost over 120 million dollars, which is about $5,000 per square foot . Single family; 65 rooms, 19 bathrooms; 7 stories.

This job is slightly smaller but my contract is going to wind up being higher than the job above.

A company can either do these jobs or they can't. If you can, then you put your big-boy undies on in the morning and you make it work. Once a month, you requisition for a big check and you get it.
Believe me, I'm very jealous of all the photos of these grand boiler installations shown on The Wall throughout the year but I rarely ever have a boiler room big enough to stand back and fit my installations into the frame of a camera.

Jumping through other people's hoops is what puts my company on the short list of plumbing contractors considered for jobs like this and there are General Contractors who get work because they use subcontractors like me.

I know I've been a bit wordy here and I know you absolutely meant no offense (none was taken) but this is my world. It can't be compared to a lot of others.

JohnNY

Steve Minnich said:

@JohnNY - What did you decide?

Not much yet. We've dressed the boilers and are assessing layout options with the room we have left.

Tinman

I wouldn't mind jumping through a two million dollar hoop. 7 story single family home? That truly is incredible.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, @JohnNY Absolutely no offense meant! I just don’t appreciate it when people ask/expect/force technicians to do work that will be much harder to install and maintain than is normal. At some point, no matter how creative we get, there just isn’t space to be able to do a good job. You obviously are capable of doing magic in the boiler room. I’m looking forward to seeing you at Wetstock!
Yours, Larry

ScottSecor

@JohnNY I totally agree with your comments above. When we do get a large boiler room to work in we actually get to install components where we want to, instead of where we have to! Keep up the good work and show us what you came up with, although you may need to blow a hole through the boiler room wall just to snap a photo.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Wow @JohnNY it really is a different world in Manhattan! Those big-boy undies do pay well it seems! But those hoops (boiler rooms) are small.

I meant no offense either, that sure is a big heat load for 4 boilers, or do they want complete redundancy?

JohnNY

@Solid_Fuel_Man
Redundancy always. Two of these boilers will run this home modulating at around 70% I figured. Most of the time, one will do.
And just to be clear, these are big contract numbers but the costs to run and man these jobs are astronomical and maintaining profitability is its own full-time job. If I fall behind and miss a completion percentage I’m not able to submit a payment request until the following month.
If you’ve ever had to pay a crew of plumbers for two months without a payment from a client, then you know the hole you dig for yourself and in what little time. Supply houses, insurance, the Local, etc don’t wanna hear it.
I love the work, but the challenges can never be ignored.
I’ll let it be known when I strike it rich, but I’m definitely not there yet.
Cheers, my friend.

Tinman

Probably too late for this but...as far as complete redundancy and the possibility of one boiler being able to handle the load. What about having the two boilers furthest in the room removed, boxed up, and ready to go in the event of epic failure? Set it up, plan as if that will happen for extremely easy change-outs? I’ll sit back and await the beat down 😎

JohnNY

@Steve Minnich
Well, that would go like this:
I would have to write an RFI to the Project Management company requesting they inform the Engineering team the Plumbing Contractor says they (the engineers) screwed up and that they've over designed for the heating load of the home by 100% and so the plumber has decided not to install half of the heating plant they've specified and that they should make the client aware that they should make arrangements to store two boilers for about 18 years or so when the two they decided to install finally crap out.

Then I'd have my office write a credit change order giving money back to the GC for the work I was awarded but didn't do.
I don't know about this plan, my friend. I think I might just pipe in all the boilers.

Tinman

Ahh. So the redundancy was put into place by you and not the people making the decisions?

JohnNY

Steve Minnich said:

Ahh. So the redundancy was put into place by you and not the people making the decisions?

No. The engineers.

Tinman

I feel your pain. I don't how engineers in NYC operate but the ones here in Chicago seem to use the same flawed load calculations and design on every job. I don't even have to look at their design summaries to know that it will be in the ballpark of 50 BTU/H/sf. Their near boiler piping schematics are invariably wrong as well.

I've lost huge jobs because I refused to do it their way. I would ultimately be the fall guy if something went wrong and I wasn't comfortable with that.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Never worked in NY but being from MA I have worked in a few Boston area buildings in my time. I am sure NY is worse but the space restraints and the costs in Boston are for real. Most of the time equipment is jammed in and no one gives a thought about service

Tinman

I’ve been to Boston and New York. I can’t imagine what it would be like to park your truck in Manhattan, let alone work.

gennady

Steve Minnich said:

I feel your pain. I don't how engineers in NYC operate but the ones here in Chicago seem to use the same flawed load calculations and design on every job. I don't even have to look at their design summaries to know that it will be in the ballpark of 50 BTU/H/sf. Their near boiler piping schematics are invariably wrong as well.

I've lost huge jobs because I refused to do it their way. I would ultimately be the fall guy if something went wrong and I wasn't comfortable with that.

This is the reason I do design build only and reject any spec build jobs.

Tinman

@gennady I did the same my last 15 years or so as a contractor.

JohnNY

> @gennady said:
> I feel your pain. I don't how engineers in NYC operate but the ones here in Chicago seem to use the same flawed load calculations and design on every job. I don't even have to look at their design summaries to know that it will be in the ballpark of 50 BTU/H/sf. Their near boiler piping schematics are invariably wrong as well.
>
> I've lost huge jobs because I refused to do it their way. I would ultimately be the fall guy if something went wrong and I wasn't comfortable with that.
>
>
> This is the reason I do design build only and reject any spec build jobs.

> @gennady said:
> I feel your pain. I don't how engineers in NYC operate but the ones here in Chicago seem to use the same flawed load calculations and design on every job. I don't even have to look at their design summaries to know that it will be in the ballpark of 50 BTU/H/sf. Their near boiler piping schematics are invariably wrong as well.
>
> I've lost huge jobs because I refused to do it their way. I would ultimately be the fall guy if something went wrong and I wasn't comfortable with that.
>
>
> This is the reason I do design build only and reject any spec build jobs.

@gennady I’m sure you know I do lots of “design-build”. On these jobs I have a responsibility to review the specs and submit to the engineers any changes I deem necessary.
There are a handful of Engineers in NYC doing projects like this and they either know me or get to know me quickly. I usually am granted anything I suggest but if I lose it’s for a legitimate and verifiable reason. Engineers don’t want it on record that a corrective change was recommended and rejected at any point during the project. These jobs aren’t townhouses. The hydronic system design has to integrate with the HVAC system, architectural tolerances, BMS monitoring and control strategy, electrical systems, and much more. This happens between the Engineers and the Architectural firm that hires them.