Just put into service HTP UFT-100 unusual behavior. Defective main control?

Bill751

My UFT-100 was first fired about 34 hours ago. It is however an older version control than the current production. The boiler has not shut down unexpectedly and runs fine during calls for heat. The boiler is running outdoor reset. Below are the unusual things I've noticed so far.

Unusual behavior during call for heat. NY Rob and probably others have previously posted about this problems existence.

Apparently there was a problem with the control board in some of the older UFT's. while my boiler was just put in service for the first time yesterday, it is an older boiler meaning the build date was some time ago. It looks like I am lucky enough to have bought one with the factory defect. The boost function is on and working against me even though it is turned off. Hopefully HTP stands behind their product and takes care of the known problem. otherwise what good is all the money spent on a mod con that blasts off and ramps up to your max temp despite being on outdoor reset?

Errors

I have had seven total errors so far but only two different codes.

Twice I've had ER:42 Low water cuttoff circuit open. I wondered if perhaps this was due to some air still working it's way out of the system. could the error have been set by a bubble quickly passing by or does the circuit have to be open for a longer period of time than a bubble would cause during it's passing? I have an external LWCO on the boilers top supply outlet. Considering the other issues I'm having, I won't worry to much about this one until the control issue is sorted out.

Five times I've had ER:61 Fan speed signal abnormal. The fan is working when it should and the connection seems good. so by the way the manual is reading to me, the first step is to simply replace fan. The manual states if the fan does not rotate during ignition sequence to then check board voltage to see if it is within range. note that it does say that if everything checks out and you've replaced the fan, and the problem persists, replace the main control. Here again I'll wait on the main control issue before I'd gamble on the fan being bad as well.

Unusual reading in status display mode

N:St System temperature (cascade mode) "Note this index will only be shown in cascade mode. if system sensor is not connected, the screen will display 0F or 0C" I do not have 0F. I have 32F There is nothing connected to the cascade system sensor terminals and all options in the installer menu are set at factory default.

Would it be safe to assume all my issues are most likely a caused by the defective main board and does anyone know if HTP has taken care of everyone with this board issue?

The contractor who fired it up yesterday knows less about the specifics of the UFT than I do. He said he's only ever seen one of them. Last I knew no one around here sold HTP or was very familiar with them. You are hard pressed to find any contractor locally who recommends or believes in mod cons of any brand.

Edit. In attempts for a temporary solution I believe I'll try to adjust the boost parameters so that it has as little effect on target temp as possible. Not sure if the adjustments will take affect with boost turned off like it is. but since the feature is on anyway while being turned off, might as well just turn it on and try to adjust it down as slow and low as possible.

nicholas bonham-carter

Was this bought from some wholesaler, or a surplus unit from eBay?
If bought from a wholesaler, then I would think there would be no problem with ware tees on any defective parts.
Some electrical gremlins can caused by an imperfect electric supply, with a bad neutral, or ground.—NBC

Bill751

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Was this bought from some wholesaler, or a surplus unit from eBay?
If bought from a wholesaler, then I would think there would be no problem with ware tees on any defective parts.
Some electrical gremlins can caused by an imperfect electric supply, with a bad neutral, or ground.—NBC

Thanks for the reply. It was bought from Home depot. Regarding the warranty I checked at the time of purchase, warranty was to be honored. So hopefully there is no issue when HTP is contacted. I'm not sure about the other problems, but like I said the boost feature being active while turned off was a known problem. And my observations match the default boost parameters exactly. So that specific problem is definitely the known issue. ground/ neutral should be fine but I can look further into that. The boiler is plugged into a brand new Tripp lite surge protector and the all the led status lights on the protector claim the circuit is fine and the protector is functioning properly.

SuperTech

Sounds like you got it figured out. Replace the faulty control and see if the problems persist.

Bill751

SuperTech said:

Sounds like you got it figured out. Replace the faulty control and see if the problems persist.

hopefully that will do it.

Doesn't look turning on and trying to use the boost function is going to keep things temporarily under control either. I set all parameters as low and slow to react as possible. It was holding target temp down for a while, around 140 where it should have been according to the current curve and outdoor temp. Then the target suddenly shot up to my max temp of 170 all at once and away she went to climbing.

DZoro

Make sure all the air is out, water is flowing through all pumps. System should be very quiet when all the air is gone. Sharp rise in temp maybe no flow/air.
D

Bill751

DZoro said:

Make sure all the air is out, water is flowing through all pumps. System should be very quiet when all the air is gone. Sharp rise in temp maybe no flow/air.
D

Thanks. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the UFT but if not, you can see on the screen what supply temp the boiler is aiming for. In this case the boiler target temp set by the computer is what is changing when it shouldn't, then the burner ramps up to meet the new target. it's not that the temp is jumping up on it's own like you're referring to with an air issue. in the last example I posted the supply target temp should be around 140 according to the reset curve, and it was. suddenly the target temp jumped up to 170 due to the defective control. then the boiler adjust to a higher fire rate to aim for the new target temp. when this 30 degree target temp spike occurred, I had the boost function on and set at 5 degree increases once every two hours. it hadn't even been two hours and the control randomly decided to increase by 30 to my capped max 170 water temp.

NY_Rob

Hi Bill,
Sorry you're having problems with your UFT-100.

Seems you may have an old firmware revision main control board based on the way it's behaving. You can see/record the FW rev# on power up- that will be helpful for warranty replacement. Then check with HTP support for the current FW revision number.
I had to go through the Supply House I purchased the boiler from to get warranty parts from HTP. You may have to go through Home Depot?

Worst case... purchase a replacement main board part # 7855P-308 from HTP directly (http://www.shophtp.com/ecommerce/product/7855p-308/main-control-board-uft-80w) and keep the original board as a ready spare.

Being that no one in your area services/stocks HTP products it wouldn't be the worst idea to have a spare main board on-hand anyway.

I have a list of spare parts that I think are important to have at home just in case something goes wrong. I can list them here if you'd like. I didn't purchase them all at once because of the cost... I bought them over two years to help soften the blow.

Henry

In Canada, 99 % of gas appliance installers will not install a user bought gas hot water tank, boiler or furnace. Our provincial (state) Authority Having Jurisdiction has warned the big box stores not to sell gas appliances to private individuals for 20 years. Good luck getting a replacement board as your unit is probably over 3 years old. We have had only one with a bad board, It was during the manufacturing transition to a new board and firmware. As we are a certified installer, HTP replaced the whole boiler.

NY_Rob

As long as the boiler was purchased from a legit HTP reseller (not ebay) it shouldn't matter if it was from older stock. The warranty started once it was purchased by the end user not when it was manufactured.
Seems the OP had a HVAC tech commission the boiler, so HTP should be good with that.

NY_Rob

Bill751 said:

My UFT-100 was first fired about 34 hours ago.
Five times I've had ER:61 Fan speed signal abnormal. The fan is working when it should and the connection seems good.

Did the installer/HVAC tech do a combustion analysis on initial startup?
If the air/gas mix is off you could have failed/delayed, etc... ignition which could cause the fan speed error.

DZoro

I didn't catch that the boiler on its own changed the parameter from 140 to 170.
If its doing that not much you can do until you have the new board.
D

Bill751

Henry said:

In Canada, 99 % of gas appliance installers will not install a user bought gas hot water tank, boiler or furnace. Our provincial (state) Authority Having Jurisdiction has warned the big box stores not to sell gas appliances to private individuals for 20 years. Good luck getting a replacement board as your unit is probably over 3 years old. We have had only one with a bad board, It was during the manufacturing transition to a new board and firmware. As we are a certified installer, HTP replaced the whole boiler.

I know pretty much all manufactures have their own rules on the matter. I did check with HTP before making the purchase and I've talked to them after the purchase about a very small problem it had out of the box. They had no issues replacing the parts under warranty but said that I had to submit the claim through a supply house and gave me a couple names. The roughly 1/4 inch rubber seals were like $1.50 so I said that's not worth my time to submit
claim. I just bought them from their website.

The fact of the matter is the gas that flows to the homes and into these low pressure appliances installed by the "professionals" in my area, first flows through high pressure equipment and lines I've personally installed and at times also did the 1800 ( generally) PSI Hydro tests on. So while I certainly understand a contractor not wanting to install something someone else purchased or wanting to work with them on an install. It's also my right to purchase what I want and have the system I want rather than pay a contractor three times as much for a basic cast boiler installed by a guy who doesn't even believe in heat loss calculations. I've ended up fixing problems after EVERY single heating contractor I've ever hired. Every single one. So it's fine, any contractor or manufacture who doesn't want my business no matter how big or how small the job may be, No problem. My area allows me to purchase whatever I want so there is no issues there either. I'll be buying a couple more heating systems in the near future as well. I've bought two mod cons since 2016? I think it was. If HTP keeps their word ( which i suspect they will) then I'll probably buy another, or two. if not, I'll buy something else.

I won't restate here all the problems I've had with local contractors over the years during service, installation and quotes for new systems. it's been said before on my posts. if I can't even find a guy who believes in heat loss calculations, knowing flow rates or anything more advanced than basic cast boiler, then that should sum up what I'm dealing with around here.

Bill751

NY_Rob said:

As long as the boiler was purchased from a legit HTP reseller (not ebay) it shouldn't matter if it was from older stock. The warranty started once it was purchased by the end user not when it was manufactured.
Seems the OP had a HVAC tech commission the boiler, so HTP should be good with that.

True Rob, actually the warranty information in my book says the warranty begins when the appliance is put into service, not the purchase date. I don't know if they changed that now, but that was the coverage at the time of purchase. So I should be good.

Bill751

NY_Rob said:

Bill751 said:

My UFT-100 was first fired about 34 hours ago.
Five times I've had ER:61 Fan speed signal abnormal. The fan is working when it should and the connection seems good.

Did the installer/HVAC tech do a combustion analysis on initial startup?
If the air/gas mix is off you could have failed/delayed, etc... ignition which could cause the fan speed error.

He was supposed to as I stated I wanted it done, but I was not in the room at the time. I see only part of the paperwork is filled out and signed. So I will check with him tomorrow on that to see why the one sheet is not filled out and the other is. Thanks for the tip.

Bill751

NY_Rob said:

Hi Bill,
Sorry you're having problems with your UFT-100.

Seems you may have an old firmware revision main control board based on the way it's behaving. You can see/record the FW rev# on power up- that will be helpful for warranty replacement. Then check with HTP support for the current FW revision number.
I had to go through the Supply House I purchased the boiler from to get warranty parts from HTP. You may have to go through Home Depot?

Worst case... purchase a replacement main board part # 7855P-308 from HTP directly (http://www.shophtp.com/ecommerce/product/7855p-308/main-control-board-uft-80w) and keep the original board as a ready spare.

Being that no one in your area services/stocks HTP products it wouldn't be the worst idea to have a spare main board on-hand anyway.

I have a list of spare parts that I think are important to have at home just in case something goes wrong. I can list them here if you'd like. I didn't purchase them all at once because of the cost... I bought them over two years to help soften the blow.

Thanks. I will get the numbers off the screen. I believe there is a build date of 2016 stamped somewhere on the boiler. I've had it a while but other projects came up so it never got installed. after I purchase the boiler I ended up acquiring a small farm, house and barn in disrepair and everything overgrown. Also this year I started a new business. So the HTP has just been collecting dust since purchase.

Good idea on having the spare board if I somehow ended up keeping that one. if they replace it under warranty I assume they will want it, if not then I'll hang onto it.

I have read your spare parts list in the past and actually just came across it again last night. it's a good idea for sure and I'll most likely buy at least some of the stuff. I should just be able to do a search to find the list again easily.

I wanted to ask you about the peculation in the UFT. I know you've mentioned it before. Also I know someone said they still hear it every once in a while despite the boiler being in service a while and with proper flow rate. I'm not sure if that was you or someone else on here. I am not showing any unusual temp spikes or erratic changes in fire rate other than what the crazy control is doing that I already mentioned. meaning the temp inside the exchanger doesn't spike up on it's own from air then the boiler downfire or shutdown to accommodate.none of that. it doesn't appear to have any signs of air in the system. while it was working out you could hear it passing through various points in the system such as the manifold, piping, pump, through the boiler then out the top and hear it puff out of the spiralvent. while there is probably a little in there yet, I no longer seem to have any signs of air. The contractor stated that as well. yet I am getting peculation sounds on higher fire rates even when capped at 50% burner output. I am not a flow rate guru but it's something I am aware of. I'm having a hard time understanding how a boiler that has a minimum flow rate of 1.3 GPM would be peculating at all with a 6 GPM flow when the fire is capped at 50%. I must be missing something here. Over time I tend to forget things I've learned if I do not use the knowledge. it's been a long time since I've learn about and done the calculations for this system so perhaps I need to do some rereading. I certainly don't remember the math involved for how many btu's are being moved through this and that point per flow or input into the water and so on under various flows and so on. I do know my calculations from the past should have been close enough and I have two points of flow gauge reference. One is a flow gauge in the supply and the other point is the individual flow meters for each pex run on the manifold. I've heard flow meters on manifolds are not the most accurate. However when you total up the flow from each flow meter, the total is almost exactly the same reading I'm getting from the Caleffi flow meter on the supply. The totals even match each other very closely at all four pumps speeds. So since both reference points agree, I'd venture to guess I'm getting a flow reading that is close enough to true. So I am wondering why I am getting peculation at those flows/ fire rates. And concerned that I would need much more flow at fire rates above 50% I'll have to do some re reading and calculations for everything again if I cannot find my previous notes. Also I assume the 1.3 GPM minimum is for the lowest fire rate only.

Unfortunately I don't see anyway to tell exactly what the current fire rate is at any given time. Perhaps one could figure it out with the fan RPM reading? too bad they didn't include a fire rate in the menu, just for curious people who are interested in such things.

Edit. Just had a thought regarding peculation while capped at 50% fire. I don't know if the crazy control is really capping at 50% even though that is what I set it at. perhaps it's not. doesn't sound like high fire, but for all I know it could be higher than 50% Just a thought.

NY_Rob

Bill.... I think the percolation sounds we hear are more directly linked to the design of the UFT's heat exchanger rather than a low flow condition.

I've measured my flow on spacehheating and DHW and it's more than sufficient to satisfy the boilers BTU output at any given time.

A few things you can do to try to minimize it...
-Enable Step Modulation.
Limit your max combustion rate.
Keep your max CH and DHW loop temps as low as possible while still being able to heat the house and indirect.

I only notice the occasional "perk" sound while the boiler's heating the indirect- throwing 64K BTU's at it.
I Have my 15-58 pump on speed 2 and all plumbed with 1" copper and the tank is literally 4ft from the boiler (so not much head loss). I've measured the flow with the pump running- I'm getting 10.54 GPM which is more than enough for 64k BTU's boiler output. I've even tried pump speed 3 which gives me 11.25 GPM and I still hear the occasional "perk".


FWIW- after some time with your boiler you'll be able get a pretty good handle on the boiler's fire rate. It just takes a little time to learn the sounds it makes.

If your tech didn't perform the combustion analysis... have him come back and do it, it's a requirement of the warranty and it's very good info to have so in the future when you test it you have a baseline to compare the readings against.

Here's my spare parts list for my UFT-80W, most of the parts are the same for the UFT-100W... but double check as I know the mainboard, mixer some other parts are different between the two models.

7855P-262 Air Pressure Switch
7855P-092 Exhaust Temperature Sensor
7855P-068 Ignition Rod
7855P-252 GASKET, IGNITER
7855P-030 CH Supply Temperature Sensor
7855P-029 Water Level Detection Sensor
7855P-031 Flame Sensor (2)
7855P-097 CH Return Sensor
7855P-066 Burner Overheat Sensor (2)
7855P-249 O-RING, BURNER PLATE (2)
7850P-210 EXHAUST & INTAKE GASKET
7855P-368 Air Damper
7855P-369 Air Damper Guide
7855P-425 Fan Outlet Gasket
7855P-370 Burner Inlet Channel Gasket
7855P-007 Ignition Transformer
7855P-308 Control Board (no gas sensor on board)(firmware rev 0012)
7855P-344 Display Panel
7855P-025 Blower Motor (inducer fan)
7855P-381 GAS VALVE ASSY
15-55FR/LC Grundfos Alpha2 CH PUMP Rotated Flange- Line Cord Model
TH8320WF VisionPRO Wireless Wi-Fi Touchscreen 7 Day Programmable Thermostat

NY_Rob

One last thing to keep in mind- since we generally use low temp CH water in mod-cons it takes a long time to remove the entrained air in the system vs. atmospheric boilers the run at 180-200F constantly.

Bill751

Thanks Rob, appreciate the info. Yes definitely, I need to be sure the combustion is set up and the paperwork finished. He planned to send one of his guys back this week anyway to do a small unrelated plumbing repair in the basement. I'll just have him come back instead.

I do plan to limit things down and run as low temp as possible. I have have cast iron rads so it's going to be fairly easy to achieve overall good results. originally I was not planning to use or need step modulation for purposes such as extending burn times. However I'm open to using it to limit percolation. can't hurt.

As for the entrained air in atmospheric boilers VS our mod cons. good point.

Bill751

NY_Rob said:

One last thing to keep in mind- since we generally use low temp CH water in mod-cons it takes a long time to remove the entrained air in the system vs. atmospheric boilers the run at 180-200F constantly.

Played around today and temporarily adjusted my settings so that the boiler would shoot for a 180 target temp and bring the entire system up. Figured I could try to speed up air removal and observe the systems at various fire rates and so on.

I was able to hear air again working it's way through the piping and system. There would be a bubble or perc in the exchanger, you could then hear it travel up the supply and often right on past the spirovent, then hear it hit the pump and into the manifold.

Some of the air would come out of the spirovent at times, but it sounded like the majority was passing on by it. I'm not sure how much if any air bypassing the spiro is acceptable when the bubbles are big enough to hear. I guess that's the new question. depending on the answer to that, I may or may not have something partially blocking the spirovent.

NY_Rob

You're fortunate to have cast iron rads.... they're great with mod-cons.

I had to bleed my cast iron rads separately because I feed them from the bottom connection... can you bleed yours? Do you have a coin vent on the top ports (I'm assuming cast iron baseboard)?

Bill751

NY_Rob said:

You're fortunate to have cast iron rads.... they're great with mod-cons.

I had to bleed my cast iron rads separately because I feed them from the bottom connection... can you bleed yours? Do you have a coin vent on the top ports (I'm assuming cast iron baseboard)?

yes they are great! The only down side is moving them or replacing them if you ever have to, been there.

They are a mix of a few various designs of the typical standing radiators. The majority of them 38" tall x 9" deep x various lengths.

yes I have coin vents on the top ports. I got air out of them the first two times I bled them and not one bit since. even so, since the air is still working out of the system, I went around again today to each one. no air.

I'm guessing that is because they are not the high point in the system. The rads and the entire system is on the same floor, but the near boiler piping is higher than the top of the rads. (The spirovent is the high point) what's a little puzzling though is I hear the air that makes it past the spirovent and into the manifolds hit the individual pex runs. but appears to not be making it to the rads, if it did you'd think little by little it would be building up in the top and I'd be getting a little during bleeding attempts. possibly the flow in the 1/2 pex supply is not enough to push the bubbles all the way down the vertical section of pex? That vertical section comes out of the manifolds and then goes down to and transitions into horizontal runs under the subfloor to each rad. roughly four feet of vertical pex.