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hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
Hi all,
I have been reading through many posts on this site as well as a ton of other internet resources prior to installing my IBC HC 20-125. While I still have a bit to go I was hoping for some feedback if anyone is seeing anything major wrong. In the pic, from left to right, the pumps are for DHW, Basement infloor that has one manifold with control valves for 4 zones built into the manifold and then the infloor for the garage which is a 3 loop setup (No valves). I still need to get the relief valve and low water cut off installed but at this point mainly concerned with the main loop to make sure there isn't anything wrong. I appreciate any pointers or thoughts.

Thanks!


Comments

  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 938Member
    Put an isolation valve on the expansion tank, they need to be serviced regularly and you don't want to have to drain the boiler and introduce fresh water and air back into the boiler. Where is the water feed valve and backflow preventer?
  • Intplm.Intplm. Posts: 681Member
    Agreed. A valve between the expansion tank and the air separator is a big help for future service. Provided that it is allowed in your area by the building codes or building inspector.

    Job looks great so far. Keep the pictures coming.
  • DZoroDZoro Posts: 752Member
    My picture cuts out on the left side, but do you have a primary loop pump?
    D
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,259Member
    The boiler has a pump onboard, it injects into the header with the pumps for zoning, that should not be a loop. Can't see enough to know for sure.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • DZoroDZoro Posts: 752Member
    Is that boiler capable of having 2 different temperatures? The domestic hot water tank temp should be 140+ and the radiant 120* and possibly lower depending on your heat loss design temps.
    D
  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    Good point on the isolation valve. I will have to check if that is allowed in this area. If so I will get that added.

    The boiler has a internal pump for the primary loop. I currently have a loop setup with the secondary pumps per IBC's documentation (cut off on right hand side of pic). Is that not the correct way to do this??

    I have not put the waterfeed, backflow, and pressure reducer on yet.

    Thanks for the comments so far!
  • DZoroDZoro Posts: 752Member
    The boiler pump is a injection pump to the secondary side. The way you are currently piped you will need a main circ pump, to force the water the direction needed. As you are the water doesn't have a direction to go in the main loop. Best to plumb it like the design @hot_rod posted.
    D
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,259Member
    Are all the heating zones using the same temperature? If so the DHW can wire as a priority and the boiler may have a DHW call connection. The Caleffi relay box gives you choices for configuring the DHW priority and which pumps need to run.

    So on a DHW call the boiler pump, loop pump and DHW pump all need to run, zone pumps shut dow, boiler fires to 180F or so.

    Scan the QR code inside the relay cover for wiring drawings and how to adjust the switch inside the relay to match your piping.

    IF all the zones are one temperature you could have piped it as my drawing shows and saved one pump, no need for a loop.

    In the drawing shown above all the loads are piped in parallel, so the all see the exact same temperature.

    With primary secondary which I think you have, if there is another pump in the loop to the left? Loads are in series and each one gets a lower SWT. And the DHW will get a blended temperature also depending on loop flow and indirect flow. Probably not a deal breaker.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,264Member
    I would say it’s piped per the manual.


  • DZoroDZoro Posts: 752Member
    @Gordy he put in closed spaced tees below the boiler.
    D
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,259Member
    DZoro said:

    @Gordy he put in closed spaced tees below the boiler.
    D

    And the injection loop from the boiler. The IBC shows the boiler within the primary loop, boiler pump being used for that loop. I think his setup has a loop pump off to the left, that we can't see?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,264Member
    edited February 16
    My misatake.


    Easy enough fix. Remove the easy manifold, and make the connections to supply, and return.

    Or repipe like this one.
  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    OK to clear up some confusion. There are no other pumps other than what you see in the pic. To the left is just the supply coming down from the tank and then turning to run to the right. On the right side the supply just returns to the return side of the easy loop.

    So if i am hearing you guys right i have a few options:

    #1 Leave piped as is and add a loop pump as well as install mixing valves on the infloor loops after the zone pumps.

    Or
    #2 Remove the easy manifold and plump supply piping to supply of boiler and return to return of boiler. And then still install mixing valves for infloor.

    On the pump and zone control i have a question there too. The IBC has a connection for the sensor in the water tank as well as the DHW pump and then connections for other heat needs. If i am thinking about this right i should ignore that an use the zone control with zone 1 being priority and then 2-6 for the infloor?

    As for that DHW sensor IBC supplies a resister that slides into the thermostat well and my hvac guys gave me a honeywell thermostat to put on that well instead. I kno to use the supplied resistor i have to use the DHW inputs on the boiler. If one better than the other? The answer to the question above may make this one not relevant..
  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,264Member
    I think removing the easy manifold would be less work, but you will be dealing with decreasing temps down the line for each loop depending on what zone/s are calling
  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    Adding a loop pump would be pretty easy as I have room on the run up to the pressure tank.
  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    Honestly I could easily break the loop and move the returns over to the return piping and just cap off where I had them going into now. Then I wouldn't need to add in a loop pump. That would make it like Gordy posted in the last pic.
  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 938Member
    > @hamel01 said:
    > Adding a loop pump would be pretty easy as I have room on the run up to the pressure tank.

    Make sure that you have your circulator pumping away from the expansion tank. Ideally you want to tie the water feed/reducing valve in between the tank and air seperator on a tee. Isolation valves should be on anything that is regularly replaced or serviced. Fill valve and backflow preventer, expansion tank, air vents and the circulators should all have valves.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,259Member
    Why would you need mixing valves in any of the repipe options?? Run the boiler at the temperature required for the radiant, allow it to boost for DHW.

    Really no need for primary secondary and the ez header.

    Personally the best fix for all you are expecting from the system is @Gordy drawing above, or the one I posted early, same drawing really.

    Unfortunately it would a major repipe to get rid of the closely spaced tees.

    A boiler pump, a loop pump and multiple zone pumps, you may not even need the boiler with all that circulator wattage :)

    For sheer simplicity adding a loop circulator is the least amount off work. Arrange the loads so the zone that needs the highest SWT, or the one that might benefit from it is the first set of tees.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    Ok everyone. Thanks so much for your insight and direction so far. I have corrected the supply and returns to match Gordy's second pic. Now on to the wiring.. I originally thought i had this all sorted but once i started to wire it up i am not sure how this is going to work.

    To recap i have 3 circ pumps. 1 for DHW, 1 for garage in floor that is a 3 loop system and 1 for the basement in floor which is a total of 7 loops with zone actuators on each loop (4 get tied together on one tstat and the other 3 are on separate tstats.

    Using the boiler inputs and the Caleffi this was my plan:
    DHW sensor and pump goes to the boiler.
    Garage tstat and pump for in floor goes to zone 1 on the caleffi
    Basement tstas would go to zones 2-5 and that pump would go to the Sec pump terminals.

    Priority jumper would be off and the XX terminals on the Caleffi would be connected to the x4.6 and x4.7 on the IBC

    My question is what keeps the in floor from coming on when the DHW is running since the temps will be higher for the DHW vs the infloor. I get that the boiler would know if the floor is calling but the Caleffi wouldn't know if the boiler is providing for the DHW or not and could introduce much hotter water into the floor.

    Any thoughts??

    Thanks!
  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,264Member
    That’s why you would use domestic priority. That way all zones are shut down while making domestic hot water. Other wise you would need mixing valves for the radiant zones as a high limit safety.
  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    Right I get that but with the gear I was given for this how do i make that work properly?
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,259Member
    If you want the relay box to control it, you need an aqua stat on the Dhw tank wired to zone 1
    Dhw pump goes to zone 1 pump connection, priority set to on.

    If you wire the indirect via the sensor to the boiler, the boiler would need to send a signal to the relay box to drop all the heat calls off. Not sure if that boiler has contact that could wire to the relay zone 1 to allow heat calls to drop off?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    I thought about wiring it that way but i am still short of a power output for the pumps and yeah your right about the boiler. It doesn't have a way to signal to drop off the other zones.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,259Member
    First, how did you end up with the piping? Did you add a primary loop pump, or change the close tees?

    A sketch of how it is currently piped would help design the control wiring.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    I will post another picture tonight once i get back out there but the short answer is the close tee's where removed and the loop was cut so there is a supply side and a return side to the ez header now with all pump pulling from the supply with internal check valves. I think in my head i may have the wiring figured out with the way it is plumbed but it will require another control box. Either that or a change from 3 pumps to 2 pumps (1 for DHW and one for in floor) and a zone valve to isolate the garage infloor.
  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    Ok here is the pic. The way i see it i have 3 options unless someone else can find another way:




    #1 - Pull the middle pump and right pump and move it (Variable Pump) to before the tee's on the supply line for the infloor. Then install a zone valve for the garage infloor. In the zone control wire the first pump to zone 1 along with aquastat from DHW tank. the other pump would go the sec terminal. Zone 2 would be the newly installed zone valve and 3-6 would be the basement infloor which is zoned at the infloor header. From there wire the xx terminals on the zone control to the space heating terminals on the boiler and the zone 1 output terminals from the zone control to the DHW terminals on the boiler.

    #2 - Pull all the pumps and reinstall the variable pump before any tee's. Install zone valves for DHW and Garage infloor and repeat most steps as above.

    #3 - get another pump control unit to slave off the first one and leave it all the way it is.

    To me #2 seems like the best option but not the least amount of work which i am ok with. I would rather have it right and spend some more time vs getting it to work as quickly as possible.

    Does anyone else see any other way to do it?

    Thanks!!

  • hamel01hamel01 Posts: 11Member
    Hey Guys. Any thoughts on this?
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,259Member
    I like #2, a single ∆P circulator and either actuators on each loop or a zone valve on each manifold.

    The DHW circulator should be able to wire into the boiler control?

    You mentioned actuators on the 7 port basement manifold, what about the garage 3 loop manifold?

    If you have multiple thermostats connected to one manifold you pretty much need actuators on each loop.

    What type of actuators? If you have the low current draw type 250mA, you could wire 4 to one t-stat thru the relay, 3 to another, and the garage 3 to the 3 thermostat.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,264Member
    What’s wrong with what you have?
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